Let there be light!

[richardnunweek]

Hi
Around 1974 whilst on my way to the dogs, I took with me a couple of articles/books,[ to read on the train] I came across an interesting point.
It was a reference allegedly made by Mrs Maxwell, stating the following.
''Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold,'' that is the quote I remember reading.
I also believe McCormack wrote in his book ''She was all muffled up , as in cold''
Words that differ from the first quote, but meaning the same.
It then dawned on me that Hutchinson had Kelly saying ''I have lost my handkerchief'', and the two previous quotes, had me contemplating the following.
If Mary Kelly was suffering with a cold, and if Mrs Maxwell saw her as in cold, then both Hutchinson's account and hers go together, but that would not have been possible if she was killed prior to 8.am.
I wrote to Colin Wilson , and he was fascinated by that observation, but obviously mentioned ''We cannot know if she did have a cold unfortunately.
If she did need the hanky for blowing her nose, its possible that she was in cold, which would give strength to Hutchinson's account. and Mrs Maxwell's.
Regards Richard.

[David Orsam]

By the time she stepped onto the stand the news was common knowledge

Read my post again Michael. I quoted from her written statement which she gave to the police prior to stepping onto the stand.

[David Orsam]

There are a range of versions of what Maxwell said in different press accounts, but I find this a little contrary to her seemingly popularity in the neighbourhood.

Earlier in this thread you called her a "local celebrity". Where are you getting this idea from?

[Wickerman]

Earlier in this thread you called her a "local celebrity". Where are you getting this idea from?

Hi David, yes, I did see your earlier question but couldn't recall anything specific at that moment.

According to press interviews with her friends Kelly was well known in the area and easily recognisable, not many women wore their hair long and loose and the colour made her stand out. Her apron always clean and white.

Insp. Drew wrote that Mary had been well-known to every resident and, sunny of nature, had been very popular.

An Echo reporter visited a local doss-house to ask if anyone knew the victim...two local dossers are quoted...

When asked, "Did anyone know her?"

- "Did anyone not know her? - a remark which hugely tickled his companions. Poor Mary Jane Kelly was a figure, it appears, in street brawls, sudden and quick in quarrel, and - for a woman - handy with her fists.

- An elderly man who wore a coat and waistcoat, but no shirt beneath, averred in pessimistic tones it was better for Mary Jane Kelly to have been done to death. "Wot was her life?" he muttered, spreading out his thin and not too clean hands to the fire. "Starvation three days a week, and then, when she got money, drink for the other three days. I knowed her. I guv her the money for her doss three weeks ago cos she hadn't none. Yes, matey, and that at two in the mornin'," he said, turning to our reporter whose intent bearing may possibly have suggested incredulity. "Mary Jane was a good soul." This testimony was freely offered. "She would spend her money lavishly when she had any, and when she hadn't any, why -"

These are the only snippets I could locate at the moment, so yes, she was well known, and people are said to have liked her.
In that sense, a local celebrity, someone remembered by many.

[David Orsam]

Insp. Drew wrote that Mary had been well-known to every resident and, sunny of nature, had been very popular

The full quote of Inspector Dew in his memoirs was:

"Meanwhile, in Miller's Court itself, there was something approaching panic. Marie had been well-known to every resident and, sunny of nature, had been very popular."

So he was there talking about the residents of the few houses in Millers Court.

And even then, do you really think he had spoken to "every resident" to establish this?

I find it a little hard to take seriously the comments of the local dossers (did MJK actually require "doss money"?) and I'm not aware of the press interviews which said Kelly was "well known in the area". Are you able to dig them out?

[Observer]

I find it a little hard to take seriously the comments of the local dossers (did MJK actually require "doss money"?) and I'm not aware of the press interviews which said Kelly was "well known in the area". Are you able to dig them out?

Not that you'll take any notice of this for you are somewhat selective in what you want to believe and not to believe, but here it is anyway

"Tom Cullen, author of The Autumn of Terror , interviewed a retired market porter named Dennis Barrett. As a boy, he knew Mary Kelly by sight. She also went by the name of "Black Mary". Barrett stated "she had her pitch outside the Ten Bells Pub in Commercial Street, and woe to any woman who tried to poach her territory. Such a woman was likely to have her hair pulled out in fistfuls." So when you stand outside the entrance to the Ten Bells Pub, you are truly standing in the footsteps of perhaps the most famous of the Ripper's victims, Mary Kelly!"

[David Orsam]

Not that you'll take any notice of this for you are somewhat selective in what you want to believe and not to believe, but here it is anyway

I have to say I think that comment is unfair and uncalled for.

I'm sure Mary Jane Kelly knew some people in the Whitechapel area like practically everyone did and some people knew her. I'm trying to establish if she was actually a particularly "well known" or "popular" person.

[Observer]

I have to say I think that comment is unfair and uncalled for.

I'm sure Mary Jane Kelly knew some people in the Whitechapel area like practically everyone did and some people knew her. I'm trying to establish if she was actually a particularly "well known" or "popular" person.

Looking at your track record of late, in my opinion, the above comment is not out of place, although, the vast majority who contribute to this forum have been guilty of similar behaviour at one time or another.

There are several press reports, as Jon Wickerman has pointed out, which relate to Mary Kelly being a bit of a character, and rather well known in that area. McCarthy said this of her at the inquest

"I frequently saw the deceased the worse for drink. When sober she was an exceptionally quiet woman, but when in drink she had more to say. She was able to walk about, and was not helpless."

So it seems as if she was quite argumentative in drink.

Regarding whether Maxwell's evidence should be taken seriously, all I'll say is this. I'd be surprised if the police did not check whether Kelly had or had not visited The Britannia PH at the time stipulated by Maxwell. Regarding the man she claimed she saw talking with Kelly, as far as I know he didn't appear in any of the descriptions of individuals whom the police were interested in tracing.

Furthermore, the coroner seemed to be wary of her evidence, he stating

"You must be very careful about your evidence, because it is different to other people's.

There was also this exchange between Macdonald, and Maxwell.

[Coroner] Did you speak to her ? - Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."
[Coroner] And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

Again, regarding her evidence, the coroner seemed somewhat incredulous.

I believe Maxwell was one of those witnesses who were seeking their five minutes of fame, much like Hutchinson, Packer, and Violenia.

[Wickerman]

The full quote of Inspector Dew in his memoirs was:

"Meanwhile, in Miller's Court itself, there was something approaching panic. Marie had been well-known to every resident and, sunny of nature, had been very popular."

So he was there talking about the residents of the few houses in Millers Court.

And even then, do you really think he had spoken to "every resident" to establish this?

Well actually David, the police did.

During the whole of yesterday Sergeant Thicke, with other officers, was busily engaged in writing down the names, statements, and full particulars of persons staying at the various lodging-houses in Dorset-street. That this was no easy task will be imagined when it is known that in one house alone there are upwards of 260 persons, and that several houses accommodate over 200.
Times, 12 Nov.

I don't expect Drew is implying he undertook this task himself, he is likely relaying pertinent details that arose from the house-to-house enquiries undertaken throughout Dorset St. and adjoining streets and courts, over that weekend.


The deceased was well known to those living round about,...

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881110.html

I find it a little hard to take seriously the comments of the local dossers (did MJK actually require "doss money"?) and I'm not aware of the press interviews which said Kelly was "well known in the area". Are you able to dig them out?

The rent she paid was due either daily or weekly, sources differ.
I'm not sure it is fair to expect a dosser to make the distinction between his "doss-money" and Kelly's rent for her room. Its all the same thing to them who don't care.

[harry]

There is little conclusive evidence about anything.One is reduced to belief,and as long as that belief is belief beyond a reasonable doubt,I find nothimg wrong in believing Hutchinson was the person seen by Lewis, that Maxwell made a mistake,and the murder of Kelly were committed in the hours of darkness.
Oh! and no one was seen entering the court ahead of Lewis.

[David Orsam]

Looking at your track record of late, in my opinion, the above comment is not out of place, although, the vast majority who contribute to this forum have been guilty of similar behaviour at one time or another.

It's a real shame that you persist in your unfair and unwarranted allegation rather than withdraw it, referring vaguely to my "track record". It calls into question your own behaviour in my opinion.

Of course, there is so much inconsistent evidence in this case that it's impossible not to be selective if you want to express any opinion at all but your accusation is obviously that I am somehow improperly and irrationally selecting facts to support a certain position and ignoring others which don't.

I deny this absolutely and don't believe you will find any evidence of this in my posts. As it happens, I've expressed relatively few opinions on this forum regarding the murders and those that I have expressed only after carefully considering the evidence.

I suggest you are being selective in your reading of my posts and seeing what you want to see.

[David Orsam]

There are several press reports, as Jon Wickerman has pointed out, which relate to Mary Kelly being a bit of a character, and rather well known in that area. McCarthy said this of her at the inquest

"I frequently saw the deceased the worse for drink. When sober she was an exceptionally quiet woman, but when in drink she had more to say. She was able to walk about, and was not helpless."

So it seems as if she was quite argumentative in drink.

Regarding whether Maxwell's evidence should be taken seriously, all I'll say is this. I'd be surprised if the police did not check whether Kelly had or had not visited The Britannia PH at the time stipulated by Maxwell. Regarding the man she claimed she saw talking with Kelly, as far as I know he didn't appear in any of the descriptions of individuals whom the police were interested in tracing.

Furthermore, the coroner seemed to be wary of her evidence, he stating

"You must be very careful about your evidence, because it is different to other people's.

There was also this exchange between Macdonald, and Maxwell.

[Coroner] Did you speak to her ? - Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."
[Coroner] And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

Again, regarding her evidence, the coroner seemed somewhat incredulous.

I believe Maxwell was one of those witnesses who were seeking their five minutes of fame, much like Hutchinson, Packer, and Violenia.

The rest of your post Observer is like Groundhog Day for me. I wonder if you have actually been reading my posts on this subject.

The Coroner's wariness must have been based on his knowledge of the doctor's estimate of time of death, perhaps with the scream in mind, but I've said a number of times that his remarks to Mrs Maxwell were unfair bearing in mind that there was no evidence presented at the inquest which contradicted her account of Kelly being alive at 8:00am. None at all.

The word "incredulous" is yours alone and is not supported by anything the coroner said. Of course he asked questions and tested her account but it's impossible to know for sure what impression Mrs Maxwell left on the inquest. I'm not aware of any contemporary comments about that. Dew says something about it but that was much later.

As for the Britannia, the police would only have been able to find out anything if the people in the Britannia actually knew her and that's why I've been pressing Jon about the evidence relating to her being a local celebrity or "well known". We have no idea if she had ever been into the Britannia before; perhaps she drunk in other pubs. So the people in the Britannia might never have seen her before or taken any notice of her if she had been in there. There were no photographs the police could show people to identify her. Maxwell didn't even say she was in there in any case, she said she saw her outside the Britannia. It was Lewis who said she was in there.

And you can believe what you like about Maxwell, it doesn't change the fact that there was no evidence presented at the inquest which contradicted her account, nor anything we know now that contradicts her account, and THAT is the only point I have been making in this forum.

[David Orsam]

Well actually David, the police did.

During the whole of yesterday Sergeant Thicke, with other officers, was busily engaged in writing down the names, statements, and full particulars of persons staying at the various lodging-houses in Dorset-street. That this was no easy task will be imagined when it is known that in one house alone there are upwards of 260 persons, and that several houses accommodate over 200.
Times, 12 Nov.

I don't expect Drew is implying he undertook this task himself, he is likely relaying pertinent details that arose from the house-to-house enquiries undertaken throughout Dorset St. and adjoining streets and courts, over that weekend.

The thing is Jon that brings into sharp focus the fact that only a small handful of people apparently knew anything relevant about Kelly's last day alive to testify at the inquest. How many people apparently spoke to her or saw her on the Thursday? A small handful out of the thousands that you point out the police spoke to.

How many people even said they knew her in the press? A very small number.

I don't really see that Kelly was more than a normal woman (or prostitute) in Whitechapel who knew the normal amount of people living in the surrounding area one would expect her to know. I find it difficult to believe that she was anything approaching an especially "well known" local person.

[David Orsam]

The rent she paid was due either daily or weekly, sources differ.I'm not sure it is fair to expect a dosser to make the distinction between his "doss-money" and Kelly's rent for her room. Its all the same thing to them who don't care.

Surely not. Wouldn't doss money mean money for one night's doss in a lodging house? Would he have really given her 4s 6d for her weekly rent?

Perhaps she was a con artist because she was about 6 weeks behind in her rent, with 29 shillings owing at the time of her death, and if the dosser gave her some "rent money" three weeks before her death she presumably spent it on booze.

In all seriousness though Jon, if a reporter goes in and asks some dossers if they knew this woman who has just been murdered the answer, which brought a laugh of "who doesn't know her?", could just as easily have been a joke based on the fact that no-one had a clue who she was rather than a serious answer.

Let's put it this way, the evidence based on reports in the press that Kelly was "well known" throughout the area is sketchy to say the least.

[Bridewell]

There was also this exchange between Macdonald, and Maxwell.

[Coroner] Did you speak to her ? - Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."
[Coroner] And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

I interpret this as indicating that MJK and Maxwell were people who knew each other well by sight as neighbours, but didn't spend a great deal of time in each other's company. The first sentence is particularly interesting IMHO. I think, if she was a truthful witness, that this adds weight to the credibility of her sighting. She noticed MJK because her appearance at that time of day was out of the ordinary. They also each addressed the other by name. That doesn't suggest a case of mistaken identity, but rather a genuine sighting - or a mendacious witness. I see no evidence that she's a liar. Macdonald spoke as he did because her evidence was inconsistent with the likely TOD.

Why "by being about in the lodging- house though"? What was MJK doing in the lodging-house if she had her own room?