Prater's stairs

[Bridewell]

I'm wondering if the original architect's drawings for the address might still be on file somewhere? That would settle it. London Metropolitan Archive perhaps?

[Stephen Thomas]

Good and bad points - Thomas model:
Good points:
Main stairs are in the correct place (facing the front door).
Prater's door and the 2nd steps are in a position and location that supports her assertion of seeing light as she ascends the stairs.
Shed can be conveniently partitioned from the rest of the house but the front door can still be used to access the upper floors.
Bad points:
Lots of work & expence adding a new doorway, stairs and partition.
The 1st floor layout doesn't agree with the testimony of the Kate Marshall case.
Prater lived in the front room (#20) but there is no direct access to #20 from 'Prater's door or steps'
The partition would intrude the floor space of #13 & #19 by 3ft reducing the size of the rooms.

Hi Richard

If the front door was not accessible to tenants on the upper floors of #26 then another way had to be found. I've never said or even implied that Room 20 could be directly accessed from the back stairs. Even on my scruffy drawing from many years ago Prater would have had to have traversed a store room (formerly the 1st floor back parlour of #26) to get to the 6x3 foot landing on the main stairs. I later revised the plan to show a corridor and a separate enclosed store room with the corridor being in a reversed 'L' shape, something I described early on in this thread. Lo and behold when David's good work unearths new testimony in the Kate Marshall case we find the corridor mentioned for the first time ever and described as a dark passage. Also the mention of a partition implies that the store room had wooden walls which I find interesting. It would seem that Roberts struggled with Marshall along the dark corridor and they ended up on the small landing outside room 20 followed by the mortally wounded Eliza Roberts who left some blood on the partition wall of the store room. I realise that you have based your Goads Plan on Amory's statement at the Old Bailey trial that he could see Robert's door from his own and this did throw me for a little while until I realised that the logical and inevitable layout of a bog standard small Georgian terrace house meant that this was impossible.

As regards the stuff about the partition and Prater's stairs eating into the floor space of #13 and #19 one could say 'so what?' but there is an interesting question here. Illustrations show that the fireplace in #13 is in the dead centre of the wall which normally would mean that the room and the staircase were constructed at the same time which begs the question of whether #13 was part of the main house originally with the partition and staircase behind or whether #13 and #19 were added on later probably when the houses in the court were built.

[richardh]

I later revised the plan to show a corridor and a separate enclosed store room with the corridor being in a reversed 'L' shape, something I described early on in this thread.

Stephen, do you have an illustration/drawing of this revised plan so I can... revise my model ?

I wanna get this as right as I can.

[richardh]

Updated (tweaked) the Goad Model.
HERE

Changed the direction of the stairs to face toward the front door. 1st floor layout agrees with the Kate Marshall testimony.

[Wickerman]

Updated (tweaked) the Goad Model.
HERE

Changed the direction of the stairs to face toward the front door. 1st floor layout agrees with the Kate Marshall testimony.

Hi Richard.
So you end up with stairs located very much like we saw at Hanbury St.

Didn't we have it that way earlier, but wasn't there an objection, perhaps that the stairs obscure a view of Kelly's partition.
Prater said it was possible to see light through a split? in the partition.

I actually prefer this.
We don't know if those stairs had risers, so it would still be possible to see through the treads if there were no risers.
On balance, this arrangement better suits what we know.

[richardh]

Yes, Jon, this configuration is similar to an earlier version and I too like it better because the stairs are in a more logical position/location.
I agree also that the partition would be obscured by the stairs so that anyone ascending would not really be able to see the partition once going UP the stairs. they would be able to see the partition upon entering the door (Prater's door). I know Prater stated that she could sometimes see light through the partition when she went up but maybe she meant that she saw the light when she came through the door and started up the stairs?

There are still problems to sort out and the model is still a work in progress!

Hi Richard.
So you end up with stairs located very much like we saw at Hanbury St.

Didn't we have it that way earlier, but wasn't there an objection, perhaps that the stairs obscure a view of Kelly's partition.
Prater said it was possible to see light through a split? in the partition.

I actually prefer this.
We don't know if those stairs had risers, so it would still be possible to see through the treads if there were no risers.
On balance, this arrangement better suits what we know.

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Richard

Regarding our private conversation, yes your positioning of the store room is now dead right but I think the important thing is to be able to show the entrance and exit for the corridor which would have started at the top of the back staircase (which some people here are strangely refusing to believe existed) then snaked round the store room and ended at the 1st landing of the main stairs outside Room #20. It would be nice, and I for one would be very grateful, if you could produce a 2D computer floor plan graphic showing Rooms 19 and 20 with the store room and 'dark passage' between and the landing outside Room #20. As far as I can see the store room would have been about the size of a professional snooker table.

[richardh]

So, you're saying that the store room would be about 6ft x 12ft Stephen, on a landing that is 12ft x 10ft (or being generous 15 x 10ft)? Maybe you mean a pool table (9 x 5)?

Hi Richard
As far as I can see the store room would have been about the size of a professional snooker table.

[richardh]

Here's a plan of what it looks like at the moment:


I'm wondering if you want that partition to be positioned INSIDE the floorspace of #13? In which case it will be right up against the chimney breast in #13 which would contradict the contemporary drawings we have which shows an alcove between the chimney breast and the partition wall.

Is the solid line on the Goad plan between the landing and #19 (seen on the goad plan in this image) the partition or the back wall of the shed/#19?

[richardh]

Updated the Thomas Plan again and readjusted the 2D plan (above).
LINK

[Stephen Thomas]

Here's a plan of what it looks like at the moment:


I'm wondering if you want that partition to be positioned INSIDE the floorspace of #13? In which case it will be right up against the chimney breast in #13 which would contradict the contemporary drawings we have which shows an alcove between the chimney breast and the partition wall.

Is the solid line on the Goad plan between the landing and #19 (seen on the goad plan in this image) the partition or the back wall of the shed/#19?

No, you haven't quite got it yet, Richard.

Room 13 was as it was. It was said to be 12x10 ft but maybe it was 13x9.5 ft or maybe 14x10.5 ft or something similar. Who knows? The chimney breast was in the centre of the back wall and the partition was where it was as per the photo. Of course the brick wall on the Goad Map doesn't represent the partition. Goad Maps don't show any internal walls apart from brick walls and don't show doors or windows either. Any attempt to try and figure out the internal layout of a building simply from a Goad Map is doomed to failure. I don't know but I imagine that the Goad Maps were mainly to detail where brick walls were to stop the spread of fire. The back staircase was between Kelly's room and the main back wall of the house. Your 2D plan is very good but the back parlour which had become a store room and a corridor is a little too square.

[richardh]

Stephen,
This link will open up a page where you can annotate the image above.

Can you guide me by drawing what you mean please?

https://www.twiddla.com/2486560

thanks

No, you haven't quite got it yet, Richard.

Room 13 was as it was. It was said to be 12x10 ft but maybe it was 13x9.5 ft or maybe 14x10.5 ft or something similar. Who knows? The chimney breast was in the centre of the back wall and the partition was where it was as per the photo. Of course the brick wall on the Goad Map doesn't represent the partition. Goad Maps don't show any internal walls apart from brick walls and don't show doors or windows either. Any attempt to try and figure out the internal layout of a building simply from a Goad Map is doomed to failure. I don't know but I imagine that the Goad Maps were mainly to detail where brick walls were to stop the spread of fire. The back staircase was between Kelly's room and the main back wall of the house. Your 2D plan is very good but the back parlour which had become a store room and a corridor is a little too square.

[richardh]

Sorry,
Ignore that link above Stephen, I though the service (twiddla) allowed me to set up a permanent whiteboard with the image ready to annotate. It seems they refresh/remove the pages automatically even if you have an account (unless you pay of course).

I'll find another 'whiteboard' website and try again.

Sorry
R

Stephen,
This link will open up a page where you can annotate the image above.

Can you guide me by drawing what you mean please?

https://www.twiddla.com/2486560

thanks

[richardh]

Actually, the link should work as long as I keep the window open on my PC. So annotate the image using the link above.

thanks

[richardh]

Link to annotate the map is:

https://www.twiddla.com/2486560

password is - ripper