Prater's stairs

[Joshua Rogan]

Richard,
I'm sure the stairs you posted a picture of would do the job, my family home had some of similar construction leading to the loft.
If I understand Jon's point about the floor joists, though, it's not the stair construction itself that is the problem, it's that you need to have a big hole in the ceiling/next floor in order to be able to walk up them. If the stairs run in the same direction as the joists, then all you need to do is not floorboard the bit over the stairs. But if they run across the joists, you need to cut several joists to make room, which means they are no longer supported by the wall and have to be strengthened with cross-beams or pillars. ie, more work and expense.

This is why I'm puzzled as to why you have stairs that aren't a straight flight, as it seems these would definitely mean several joists would need removing/shortening.
But I may have misunderstood.

[richardh]

Josh
No need to be puzzled, the model is most probably inaccurate. The stairs have been every which way and none of the configurations tried have met with universal approval.

Like Stephen (Thomas) says, I'm nice but a bit dim so any anomalies are pure down to my own odd decisions.
No matter.

I'll leave these models as they are now as there is no real point in continuing seeing as the actual layout has been lost to history and is totally open to interpretation.

Perhaps a better man than me can figure it out eventually.

regards

Richard,
I'm sure the stairs you posted a picture of would do the job, my family home had some of similar construction leading to the loft.
If I understand Jon's point about the floor joists, though, it's not the stair construction itself that is the problem, it's that you need to have a big hole in the ceiling/next floor in order to be able to walk up them. If the stairs run in the same direction as the joists, then all you need to do is not floorboard the bit over the stairs. But if they run across the joists, you need to cut several joists to make room, which means they are no longer supported by the wall and have to be strengthened with cross-beams or pillars. ie, more work and expense.

This is why I'm puzzled as to why you have stairs that aren't a straight flight, as it seems these would definitely mean several joists would need removing/shortening.
But I may have misunderstood.

[Joshua Rogan]

Don't do yourself a disservice Richard, you've done some fantastic work. But as you say, it may just be that in trying to recreate this particular building, you've created a puzzle you can never solve...

[Azarna]

May I just congratulate you on all your work on this, richardh. You must have the patience of a saint.

I tried to construct this building in Second Life a few years ago and got myself in a right muddle with the stairs. At one point I flipped it all upside down, added some flamingos around it and went to bed in a huff!

I have been following this thread with great interest and am very impressed at your efforts. It has all been very fascinating indeed.

[Yabs]

Really impressive work with the 3D images, I don't know if this helps but this article suggests the archway stairs lead to a landing with access to two rooms.

Maybe little clues in various newspapers will solve the layout for you in time

[Rosemary]

Intangibles

What amazing work Richard, in trying to deconstruct/reconstruct intangibles. I'm in awe & I have a migraine just considering it.

[Wickerman]

Jon,
Could the 2nd staircase have been just wooden steps that were simply fixed to the floorboards (i'm assuming the floor in #26 was boards)
like these?


this would do-way with cutting up floor joists.

If they used this sort of thing then they only needed to smack a whole in the passageway wall to create a doorway.

Almost considered a temporary measure 'codge job'?

Richard.
Here is a floor plan for a late 19th century terrace house.



The floor joists are white, and run from left to right, at either 12" or 16" centers.
The large open rectangle at bottom, just left of center is the opening for stairs coming up through the joists.
Notice the stairs enter in line with the length of the floor joists, not perpendicular.

Even if the stairs were bolted to the concrete floor (as you offer), you still need to cut out a section of joists so you can walk up through the ceiling.
This diagram shows how to do it the right way.
If stairs were installed across the 'partition wall' in Kelly's room they will run perpendicular to the joists, which is wrong.

This picture also shows how many joists would need to be cut short in order to install stairs perpendicular to those smaller joists (I can see this may be confusing).
I used this picture because it gives examples of the two problems we are discussing, but on reflection, maybe not a good idea.

[Wickerman]

Maybe what I previously posted was too confusing, the detail below is what I saw in that floor plan. Joists running from front to back, and the stairs installed in line with the main floor joists.

Like so.



Even if the floor joists ran side to side (as I indicated with No. 26 Dorset St.) any stairs should rise up through the floor in line with the principal direction of the joists.
This is how Richard has placed them in his Goads Plan.

[Wickerman]

What I also saw as a point of interest was that when stairs are installed perpendicular to the run of the floor joists, a supporting wall must be included, which does not exist in Kelly's room.
That 19th century floor plan showed a stone supporting wall (black line) under the short end of the stairs. No such stone wall is inside Kelly room.

The other alternative is to build a stone supporting wall along the length of the stairs to support the cut joists. As shown here..

Example of the rear room at the back of No.26


No load bearing wall is inside Kelly's room.

The suggestion was made on this thread, that an extra set of stairs could have been built between the back wall of No.26, and the partition we see in Kelly's room.

The point I have been trying to make is that you would need something considerably stronger than a partition to support the joists which need to be cut if you want a second set of stairs outside the back wall of No.26.

[richardh]

I understand now what you are saying Jon. I missed the point entirely. Sorry.

What I also saw as a point of interest was that when stairs are installed perpendicular to the run of the floor joists, a supporting wall must be included, which does not exist in Kelly's room.
That 19th century floor plan showed a stone supporting wall (black line) under the short end of the stairs. No such stone wall is inside Kelly room.

The other alternative is to build a stone supporting wall along the length of the stairs to support the cut joists. As shown here..

Example of the rear room at the back of No.26


No load bearing wall is inside Kelly's room.

The suggestion was made on this thread, that an extra set of stairs could have been built between the back wall of No.26, and the partition we see in Kelly's room.

The point I have been trying to make is that you would need something considerably stronger than a partition to support the joists which need to be cut if you want a second set of stairs outside the back wall of No.26.

[richardh]

Looking at the contemporary sketches of #13 we can see that the artists have the floor boards running the width of the room. I take it this means the joists are running from front (Dorset Street) to back (Miller's Court)?

Does my Goad model (as it stands today) agree with this Jon?

EDIT: I don't think it does, does it?

Maybe what I previously posted was too confusing, the detail below is what I saw in that floor plan. Joists running from front to back, and the stairs installed in line with the main floor joists.

Like so.



Even if the floor joists ran side to side (as I indicated with No. 26 Dorset St.) any stairs should rise up through the floor in line with the principal direction of the joists.
This is how Richard has placed them in his Goads Plan.

[Wickerman]

Looking at the contemporary sketches of #13 we can see that the artists have the floor boards running the width of the room. I take it this means the joists are running from front (Dorset Street) to back (Miller's Court)?

Does my Goad model (as it stands today) agree with this Jon?

EDIT: I don't think it does, does it?

Actually Richard, we have sketches with the floorboards running in both directions, so we can't choose one over the other on that basis alone.

[richardh]

Okay,
So how to proceed with the Goad Model? further tweaks or leave as is?

Actually Richard, we have sketches with the floorboards running in both directions, so we can't choose one over the other on that basis alone.

[Stephen Thomas]

It could mean that the partition is at right angles to room 20, creating a "corridor" between it and room 19, and serving as the "front wall" of the storage cupboard. No reason why a partition couldn't also house a cupboard door.

Of course you're right as always here, Gareth.

[Wickerman]

Okay,
So how to proceed with the Goad Model? further tweaks or leave as is?

Well Richard, this last version you uploaded:

https://sketchfab.com/models/b53af01f7aa44b61be93a538ec135620

Appears to address all the witness testimony that is known and is consistent with established building practices.
We have to accept that we will never know the actual floor plan, and there could always be variations on this theme.
I should say 'we rest our case' Richard, this is as good as it is likely to get.

You've done a terrific job Richard, thankyou.