Prater's stairs

[Wickerman]

This may better show the problem....look where the horizontal joists meet the house wall, the hatch pattern area is roughly where you would be cutting the joists to install a staircase.



Those cut joists would be the floor of room 19, but when cut, how are you going to support them?

[richardh]

This version I think satisfies all the criteria set out in the statements/testimonies.

Prater's door is still further up the passageway than I would have liked but I can't see a way to get it any nearer door #13.

The stair configuration is the Hanbury St config and the two floor's stair configurations match as I would think that each floor would have the same layout.

The partition mentioned is (red in my model) the side of the boxed in staircase going up. This I would suggest is the 'partition' that comes between the two rooms.

The two room's doors face each other.

I've kept the landing to 7ft wide with the store room measuring 5 x 7 ft

"The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left." - check
"There is a partition and a little store-room between us. I can hear what goes on in Roberts’ room." - check
"There is a wooden partition between, also a little store room, but it is on the same floor as Roberts." - check
"There is a space of between 6 & 7 feet between the two rooms." - check
"with her back to the partition; her feet were towards Amory's room." - check



Thoughts?

EDIT:
Another view. Perhaps the 'partition' could be half height, But I would suggest full height as a waist-height partition surely wouldn't be considered a partition?



Partition from room #20


Looking from #20 through to #19 (#20 wall removed)

[David Orsam]

How many of those floor joists between room 13 and room 19 above, will you need to cut off in order for you to build a staircase inside room 13?

I can't answer any questions relating to construction - if a staircase is physically impossible in the position I suggested then it's physically impossible - and I long ago gave up any attempt to defend or develop my original theory, which I pretty much abandoned, but, still, I can't shake off a belief that the ground floor partition was erected for some purpose which involved shrinking the size of room 13 rather than filling in a doorway. But I can easily be wrong and I certainly defer at all times to anyone like yourself who knows stuff about buildings.

[David Orsam]

"The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left." - check
"There is a partition and a little store-room between us. I can hear what goes on in Roberts’ room." - check
"There is a wooden partition between, also a little store room, but it is on the same floor as Roberts." - check
"There is a space of between 6 & 7 feet between the two rooms." - check
"with her back to the partition; her feet were towards Amory's room." - check

What about

"the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom"?

(that's Roberts from the trial)

[richardh]

Maybe he was referring to the wall of #20 in this instance? If not then I cannot think of a way to shift things around to account for this.

"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom" A partition that separates the room from the staircase would be the room wall no? Or is there a room wall, a space and then a partition and then the staircase?

What about

"the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom"?

(that's Roberts from the trial)

[Wickerman]

I can't answer any questions relating to construction - if a staircase is physically impossible in the position I suggested then it's physically impossible - and I long ago gave up any attempt to defend or develop my original theory, which I pretty much abandoned, but, still, I can't shake off a belief that the ground floor partition was erected for some purpose which involved shrinking the size of room 13 rather than filling in a doorway. But I can easily be wrong and I certainly defer at all times to anyone like yourself who knows stuff about buildings.

It's just that a staircase which enters a floor perpendicular to the run of the joists is an expensive undertaking, and really would not solve the problem of needing to justify a partition 3-4ft? from the house wall in room 13.
It would require a second wall to be built to support those cut joists, so you still do not have your partition.

[David Orsam]

Maybe he was referring to the wall of #20 in this instance? If not then I cannot think of a way to shift things around to account for this.

"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom" A partition that separates the room from the staircase would be the room wall no? Or is there a room wall, a space and then a partition and then the staircase?

I don't have any answers I'm afraid, only questions.

[Dorian Gray]

Some of the posts in this thread leave me scratching my head.

How can the partition and the store room be the same thing in the light of Amery's evidence:

"There is a partition and a little store-room between us".

AND

"There is a wooden partition between, also a little store room".

And then there is the evidence of Roberts at the trial:

"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom".

Surely the partition and the store room are separate things entirely, no???

David,

I read those statements as well, but I felt Franklin Hewitt Oliver's statement was clear when he said, "I saw blood on the landing outside the front room – some in the passage also and some on the partition in the passage." This statement, coupled with the others I quoted, indicated the partition is in the passage, and the only kickable feature I can see in Richard's map between the two rooms is the storage room wall. I'm scratching or banging my head as well.

That said, I agree with Stephen that the statements designate the landing as a distinct feature from the passage. Could the landing outside of Amery's room have been framed with a partial wall/partition running from the storage room to the edge of the staircase? A decorative arch or something similar? It's not much of an idea but would give Roberts something to kick near Amery's door, isolates the landing and the stairs, and lets both rooms' tenants have a clear view of each other. *I wrote this much earlier, but would it work at all Steve?

Regards,

Dorian

[Wickerman]

"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom"

A partition that separates the room from the staircase would be the room wall no? Or is there a room wall, a space and then a partition and then the staircase?

Yes, you have this wall already in your earlier version, between #20 and the stairs.:



And in your latest version, between #20 and the stairs, the bottom left picture.

[richardh]

Does the storeroom HAVE to be in that position?

EDIT:
And how big was the store room reported to be? I've read it somewhere but wanted to confirm (as well as being confused at all these sizes!)

[Wickerman]

Does the storeroom HAVE to be in that position?

EDIT:
And how big was the store room reported to be? I've read it somewhere but wanted to confirm (as well as being confused at all these sizes!)

No Richard, it doesn't.
The storeroom could be on either side of the house, but also likewise so can the stairs.
You have typically drawn this room on the east side of that floor plan, and the stairs to the west. This could be mirror imaged to have the room on the west side, and the stairs on the east.
Nothing we have read in the testimonies conflicts with that possibility.

I don't recall a size being given. Amery said the landing was 9ft wide (between 19 & 20), so we used that, but the depth was also an assumption.

[richardh]

But going by a natural layout on the ground floor, the stairs would 'normally' be forward of the front door? Also, going by the testimonies that stated that #19 was reached via a door in the passageway and up a flight of stairs would naturally (but not certainly) imply the stairs were just through the doorway.

I don't want to get started with having the stairs on the other side of the house because then the configuration possibilities would be link picking the lotto numbers! (it's much like that now).

In fact, working out this layout is like solving a sudoku puzzle!

No Richard, it doesn't.
The storeroom could be on either side of the house, but also likewise so can the stairs.
You have typically drawn this room on the east side of that floor plan, and the stairs to the west. This could be mirror imaged to have the room on the west side, and the stairs on the east.
Nothing we have read in the testimonies conflicts with that possibility.

I don't recall a size being given. Amery said the landing was 9ft wide (between 19 & 20), so we used that, but the depth was also an assumption.

[David Orsam]

And how big was the store room reported to be?

It has to have been big enough for a people to sleep in.

It was:

"a dark place with no window, in which people sleep of a night"

AND described as:

"a spare room, which is used at nights to put lodgers with their children in"

[Wickerman]

But going by a natural layout on the ground floor, the stairs would 'normally' be forward of the front door?

Ah, not an easy answer. In houses where the apex of the roof faces the street (meaning the joists run front to back), then yes the stairs quite often are in front of you when you open the front door, and there is no turn of the stairs necessary.
When the joists run transverse (side to side), as we have in Hanbury St. & Dorset St. then the placement of the stairs can be due to other considerations.

Also, going by the testimonies that stated that #19 was reached via a door in the passageway and up a flight of stairs would naturally (but not certainly) imply the stairs were just through the doorway.

"Not certainly", I agree. We can't rule out a distance of several feet between this side door and the stairs. I don't think we can use that statement as evidence in this problem.

I don't want to get started with having the stairs on the other side of the house because then the configuration possibilities would be link picking the lotto numbers! (it's much like that now).

In fact, working out this layout is like solving a sudoku puzzle!

I only mention it because the possibility is not excluded by anything we have discussed so far. I didn't want anyone thinking that these arrangements we have suggested mean the stairs HAVE to be where we place them.
A mirror image floor plan is perfectly viable.

[richardh]

SO what's the verdict on this version then?