Prater's stairs

[MysterySinger]

This attempted depiction is based on a combination of diagrams and photos, including the demolition though it's not exactly to scale.....

[Stephen Thomas]

This attempted depiction is based on a combination of diagrams and photos, including the demolition though it's not exactly to scale.....

That's a lovely picture MS and you've got the doorway to Prater's stairs exactly right i.e. between the partition and the main back wall of the house

[richardh]

Stephen, did you see what I said about the panoramic shot of the demolition photo of Miller's Court? That the depth of #13/#19 seems greater than what is depicted in Goad's plans and strengthens your plan of the innards of #26?


any thoughts on that?

That's a lovely picture MS and you've got the doorway to Prater's stairs exactly right i.e. between the partition and the main back wall of the house

[Stephen Thomas]

Stephen, did you see what I said about the panoramic shot of the demolition photo of Miller's Court? That the depth of #13/#19 seems greater than what is depicted in Goad's plans and strengthens your plan of the innards of #26?


any thoughts on that?

Well I was very impressed by your thoroughness Richard and if it proves something to you in your mind then all well and good. To repeat what I said earlier on this thread we know that there was a staircase behind the partition and it must have been between the partition and the main back wall of the house. Someone here is now questioning the 'logic' of having two staircases in the house when the reason for the second staircase is explained in contemporary reports i.e. that it was the only way for tenants to get to their rooms on the upper floors because the front door was locked.

[Pierre]

But Pierre, there is no opening into that area. you keep saying the map is valid and reliable, why does it not show then, the opening is on the ground floor

Yes. That is what I am saying too.

[Pierre]

that is an opening on the ground floor.
the key makes that very clear

What do you mean by "the key makes that very clear"? Could you please explain?

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Richard.
Even if you added another 3ft to the depth of Kelly's rear structure, thereby feeling more satisfied that room for an extra set of stairs is physically possible, you are still left with finding a logical reason why two sets of stairs would be built within feet of each other to service the same landing.

Lack of room is not the concern, it is lack of a logical reason to include it.

I agree.

Pierre

[richardh]

Stephen,
I think we are finding it hard to believe because it seems a lot of trouble to construct a 2nd staircase and partition because the front door was locked. Surely something like a double door partition/hallway from front door to original stairs would have been easier and cheaper? Also, Your plan (my model shows there is no way for door #19 and door #20 to face & be visible to each other which contradicts the Kitty Ronan murder.

These are the two points that cause problems.

Well I was very impressed by your thoroughness Richard and if it proves something to you in your mind then all well and good. To repeat what I said earlier on this thread we know that there was a staircase behind the partition and it must have been between the partition and the main back wall of the house. Someone here is now questioning the 'logic' of having two staircases in the house when the reason for the second staircase is explained in contemporary reports i.e. that it was the only way for tenants to get to their rooms on the upper floors because the front door was locked.

[Elamarna]

Yes. That is what I am saying too.

No Pierre,

you are claiming that once climbing the stairs to the 1st floor(uk) there is an opening into the upper passageway, so that in your view people can get from 26 into 27
i am saying there is and opening into the lower passageway.

completely different

[Elamarna]

What do you mean by "the key makes that very clear"? Could you please explain?

Regards Pierre

The list of symbols on a map is refereed to as the KEY. at least it was when I did A level Geography.

The map shows an opening in the passageway, which according to the KEY is on one floor only, the marking used is 1st, but given the the map uses the American system for some reason, that is the British ground floor.

Does that make it clear my friend

Elamarna

[richardh]

I'm not sure if and why it matters about Pierre's theory of this passage to #27.

Why is this important Pierre?

No Pierre,

you are claiming that once climbing the stairs to the 1st floor(uk) there is an opening into the upper passageway, so that in your view people can get from 26 into 27
i am saying there is and opening into the lower passageway.

completely different

[richardh]

Here is the Thomas Plan on Sketchfab (3D viewer) to make it easier to view.

Stephen, any changes/alterations/additions etc?

Please let me know so I can get it exactly how you want it to look.

Thanks

Goad's 3D Plan

[richardh]

Sorry, Post above is wrong and I can't edit now! Correct link in this post.

Here is the Thomas Plan on Sketchfab (3D viewer) to make it easier to view.

Stephen, any changes/alterations/additions etc?

Please let me know so I can get it exactly how you want it to look.

Thanks

https://skfb.ly/JCFt

(I'll do the same for the Goad Plan once it's finished)

[richardh]

Here's the link to the Goad's 3D plan on Sketchfab:

Goad's 3D Plan

https://skfb.ly/JCGq

[Stephen Thomas]

Stephen,
I think we are finding it hard to believe because it seems a lot of trouble to construct a 2nd staircase and partition because the front door was locked. Surely something like a double door partition/hallway from front door to original stairs would have been easier and cheaper? Also, Your plan (my model shows there is no way for door #19 and door #20 to face & be visible to each other which contradicts the Kitty Ronan murder.

These are the two points that cause problems.

Hi Richard

Well it wasn't the Kitty Ronan murder but no matter. We know that the ground floor of #26 was converted into a storage area for costermonger's barrows and it's quite possible that the internal walls and indeed the lower part of the staircase were removed to maximise space for the barrows.

The second point is a real problem and something I've been trying to make sense out of since I read the 1899 transcript of the Kate Marshall murder trial. The only conclusion I can come to, given that there was a storeroom and a corridor between the two rooms, is that Amory was wrong when he said that he could see the doorway of #19 from his own doorway in #20.

The corridor as far as I can see would start at the top of Prater's stairs on the right and go in a backwards 'L' shape round the storeroom to the first floor landing.