Prater's stairs

[Pierre]

I think you will find that Pierre will only accept a final plan that put the "partition door" in exactly the position shown on the Goad map. Is that true Pierre?
There can be no consensus because that is how he sees it.

Yes, Steve. I think the Goadīs Fire Insurance Plan is the most reliable and valid source there is for the issue of the door in Maryīs room. After it comes the photograph MJK1.

"Gut feeling", "personal opinions" and stuff like that can not be used to write history.

Regards Pierre

[Elamarna]

Michael

Thank you for pointing out:

" The assumption that the window over the archway was in a corridor between the buildings isn't substantiated anywhere in the historical literature."

For Pierre to continue to state the entrance to the upper floors of 27 must be via 26, because of the lack of doors in the 27 side of the passageway is the is an exercise in stubbornness and failed logic.

1. There are no doors shown for 26 or 27 at all apart from the opening in 26 passageway. He will not accept that external doors are assumed and not shown, I fail to understand why?
There is no front door for 27 shown, which you suggest was the way to the upper floors of 27 and does seem reasonable. Neither is there a front door to 26 or the door for 13 shown on the Goad Map.

Pierre argues that there are no doors shown in the passageway therefore there cannot have been any. Applying this logic, neither of the 3 doors above exist. Please Pierre could you explain?

2. Pierre believes there is an opening from 26 into the area he calls the corridor.

There is however no opening shown on the Goad map from 26 into this corridor.
Following the logic above, how can he suggest it exist, when he believes the map is 100% accurate and shows everything in the correct position.

I am sure Pierre will claim, i am not listening and don't want to solve anything.

He has been asked to explain the apparent "cherry picking" detailed above many times, his response is either to say we are ignoring the evidence and don't understand or he just does not reply.

Pierre, if you can explain the apparent inconsistencies in your thinking please do. I seriously want to understand the logic involved


However if you cannot explain please stop.

it is the season of good will.



put up

[Pierre]

Pierre.
A dashed line (_ _ _ _ _) also means a wall beneath a room.

Millers Court passage shows a solid line on one side because this wall extends through all floors of the property, it is a load bearing wall. This is also the property line, whereas the dashed line only exists at the ground floor level, the floor above passes over the wall beneath and is part of No.27.

As the legend below points out:

WOODEN OR PLASTER PARTITION, OR WALL SOME FLOORS ONLY



All options of the symbol (yes, a dashed line is a symbol) must be considered, but as internal partition walls are not shown in the Goads Plan, it can only be a .....WALL, SOME FLOORS ONLY.

Wooden & Partition walls do exist, but externally, as rooftop structures, a Penthouse or Loft, and at ground level, as a Gallery which is a type of Boardwalk, for instance.

I know. And it doesnīt matter if there was a partition (in the corridor which could have been kicked at in the Marshall case) or a wall. The upper passage hypothesis is the same.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Michael

Thank you for pointing out:

" The assumption that the window over the archway was in a corridor between the buildings isn't substantiated anywhere in the historical literature."

For Pierre to continue to state the entrance to the upper floors of 27 must be via 26, because of the lack of doors in the 27 side of the passageway is the is an exercise in stubbornness and failed logic.

And the assumption that the ground floor in number 26 was filled with other partitions and rooms isnīt "substantiated anywhere in the historical literature" either.

So what could it be called if someone is led to believe that partitions and rooms in an empty space was the truth when he is making a visible model of it? Perhaps it could be called "an exercise in stubbornness and failed logic" on the part of those who lead the artist astray with their own social bias and old ideas not using a map?

I thank myself for pointing this out.

And by the way. You, Steve, see the murders as a hobby. That is what you have written to me.

Well, I donīt.

And I will not be any part of your hobby either.

Regards Pierre

[Elamarna]

Yes, Steve. I think the Goadīs Fire Insurance Plan is the most reliable and valid source there is for the issue of the door in Maryīs room. After it comes the photograph MJK1.

"Gut feeling", "personal opinions" and stuff like that can not be used to write history.

Regards Pierre

I agree with you to a great extent, However much history is interpreted due to the lack of reliable evidence. For instance who won the battle of Jutland in 1916, the side who lost the most material/men or the side who were never able to leave port again. That is an opinion and has a place in
history.

Despite your continual protestations that you work scientifically most of what you say is your opinion, it is based on evidence that can be interpreted several ways. You however only accept your Personal Opinion and see no merit in any other view point.

[Wickerman]

I know. And it doesnīt matter if there was a partition (in the corridor which could have been kicked at in the Marshall case) or a wall. The upper passage hypothesis is the same.

Regards Pierre

This room (where we see bottles? in the window), on the Goads Plan looks, without measuring, to be about 7-8 ft deep, and full width of the house.



It is a two level structure and the upper portion could easily be a room, approx. 15ft x 7-8ft, the fact you view it as a corridor does not mean it is.
It should also be noted that the Goads Plan shows access to this 2-story structure on both levels from the main house, No. 27.

[Elamarna]

Pierre

And the assumption that the ground floor in number 26 was filled with other partitions and rooms isnīt "substantiated anywhere in the historical literature" either.

"So what could it be called if someone is led to believe that partitions and rooms in an empty space was the truth when he is making a visible model of it? Perhaps it could be called "an exercise in stubbornness and failed logic" on the part of those who lead the artist astray with their own social bias and old ideas not using a map?"

Has i said, you will not answer the points raised, all you do is attack others WHY WILL YOU NOT Answer the question?


I thank myself for pointing this out.

And by the way. You, Steve, see the murders as a hobby. That is what you have written to me.

Well, I donīt.


Yes studying the Whitechapel murders is a hobby, what else could you possibly call it? I am very interested in social conditions in late 19th century London and how things changed in the years following the murders.

You are trying to portray me as something I am not, most people here see it as a hobby. for very few is it work.

Tell me what do you see it has, is it a job for you? if not what?

Petulance comes out every time you are challenged or asked a question you don't like, seriously you do not behave like the serious experienced researcher you tell us you are.

I was chatting to a 16 year old a few days ago and the subject of the ripper came up, at first his reaction was like yours, he seemed to think it was all about violence.
I explained that the majority, I accept there will always be exceptions, of those interested were not interested in the details of these appalling murders. And that research into Social Conditions, Mental Health, Local History, 19th century Policing and Press Reporting was the driving force of many, this young mans attitude changed after that was explained.

And I will not be any part of your hobby either.

Does that mean you are leaving?

[Pierre]

This room (where we see bottles? in the window), on the Goads Plan looks, without measuring, to be about 7-8 ft deep, and full width of the house.



It is a two level structure and the upper portion could easily be a room, approx. 15ft x 7-8ft, the fact you view it as a corridor does not mean it is.
It should also be noted that the Goads Plan shows access to this 2-story structure on both levels from the main house, No. 27.

I can only see that you are writing "without measuring" and "could be".

The width of the passage was 5,1 ft.

I would like to see a model where the upper passage is a corridor leading to all rooms. From that we could have a discussion about problems and possibilities.

Regards Pierre

[Wickerman]

I can only see that you are writing "without measuring" and "could be".

The width of the passage was 5,1 ft.

Well of course, no-one today can say for certain what that space was used for, so we all should be saying "could be", the fact that you don't choose to says more about your approach than you realize.

The two 10ft squares over Kelly's room, show that the room behind No.27 was deeper than 5ft.
7-8ft is clearly more in keeping with the scale as shown.



Two and a half squares are shown across the width of Dorset St., and Dorset St. was 25ft wide. Establishing that this 10ft square, in true scale being 1/4" or 6.35mm, is true to scale.

[Stephen Thomas]

Isn't it strange that while the room after the Kelly murder was crawling with policemen, detectives and high ranking officials and even the ashes in the grate were sifted, absolutely nobody said that there was a door in the partition. The only person to describe a door was Walter Dew writing 40 years later and he was probably 'bigging up' his involvement at the time. Any such door would have provided a possible entrance or exit or both for the murderer. The fact that this wasn't mentioned in official reports or the numerous newspaper articles really does prove that there was no door.

And yes, I'm well aware that there's something on the photo that looks like a door.

I realise that it's bad form to quote oneself but I was surprised that nobody commented on that particular post. I'm doing it because I can't be arsed to repeat the argument.

Richardh

You are heading down a blind alley seemingly very fast and egged on by people who are impressed by your wonderful computer graphic skills. There was no door halfway down the Millers Court alley and no extra doorway in Kelley's room.

Pierre is either very stupid or a genius supertroll.

Haven't you noticed that?

Wickerman

Hi Jon. I was very impressed that you were one of the first people to understand the importance of Gareth's finding of the fact that Prater did not live in the room above Kelly but in Room 20 overlooking Dorset Street and thought kindly towards you but given that you now endorse a very strange theory about phantom doorways and insult me to boot I'll forget that.

Sam Flynn

Hi Gareth. You're watching this thread. Any thoughts about the layout?

[Wickerman]

Wickerman

Hi Jon. I was very impressed that you were one of the first people to understand the importance of Gareth's finding of the fact that Prater did not live in the room above Kelly but in Room 20 overlooking Dorset Street and thought kindly towards you but given that you now endorse a very strange theory about phantom doorways and insult me to boot I'll forget that.

Hi Stephen.

There was an uncalled for assertive tone in your earlier post, pretty well implying that other opinions on the layout came from idiots.
I suggested to you that it would have served your theory better if you had consulted a draftsman before forming your opinion.
What you described as "some sort of weird aberration" was in fact a legitimate note explaining the location of the opening.

There was no insult in suggesting you were out of your depth, dealing with something that you were not familiar with.
By your own admission, you were not familiar with the symbols & notations on these plans.

[Michael W Richards]

I realise that it's bad form to quote oneself but I was surprised that nobody commented on that particular post. I'm doing it because I can't be arsed to repeat the argument.

I believe I did, although I didn't mention additionally that the door in question is visible in a photo we all use here, with the faded numbers 26 on it, which means it is mounted opposite to what it was mounted on the street, since the street number faces into the room.

Sam can tell you all about the number, he pointed it out to me, and I can assure you myself it is clearly visible when pointed out.

[richardh]

Hi Stephen,
The models are looking at all possibilities. None of us truly know the configurations of the building. I'm open to all possibilities unless and until we get a piece of evidence that nails it once and for all.

When you say:

There was no door halfway down the Millers Court alley and no extra doorway in Kelley's room.

You say this with complete conviction. Are you 100% sure? if so then surely the evidence you have would stop all the argument and discussion?... as well as help me create a definitive model

thanks

[richardh]

Pierre,
Here's what I have so far regarding your passage-over-the-arch suggestion:

[Pierre]

Pierre,
Here's what I have so far regarding your passage-over-the-arch suggestion:

Hi Richardh,

This is certainly very good. Impressive to say the least!

And as long as the entrance to Praterīs stairs is positioned on the right spot in the passage according to Goadīs Fire Insurance Plan, nothing can go wrong with this work. Brilliant!

Kind regards, Pierre