Prater's stairs

[richardh]

Thanks Jon & GUT

Here's a .gif update of the Goad Plan with things in place in #13 (bed, chair and partition correctly positioned).

This just gets better & better Richard.
Well done!

I especially like pic #2, and with that in mind, does this mean the passage door (Praters Door), moves a little closer to Kelly's room?

Jon
Do Prater's stairs HAVE to go in that direction? could there be alternatives that would allow Prater's door close to #13's door?

Is our aim to get Prater's door on the other side of the partition?

Also
I could do with some advice on the split between the shed and the stairs.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Forum.
Unfortunately, I think consensus may be the only solution to the Mary Jane Kelly crime scene as i have read so many conflicting media reports that the truth may be lost to history.

Examples of conflicting reports:
1. Chas. Warren did or did not visit the crime scene.
2. Robert Anderson entered thru a window prior to the door being forced.
3. The bloodhounds arrived but could not grab a scent. OR. The bloodhounds did not show because they had bolted during the Surrey trials and were never recovered.

Mostly the reports of "the photographer" claim he started taking pictures of the room and court prior to the onset of the pm examination. The conditions for taking the pictures was not favourable; however, he obtained several negatives.

Only one report - Sheffield Daily telegraph - of the bed obstructing the door. No other mention of a secret door in my readings as of yet.

[Wickerman]

To be honest, I could have got the same shot from within the room too. I just feel that the window (sill) would have been a good place to compose that shot.

Quite so Richard.
There had to be a reason for this sketch.


Courtesy of Stewart Evans.

[Elamarna]

In all fairness Steve & Pierre, I had pointed out that there were two opportunities.

The press reported that the photographer arrived and took photo's after the preliminary examination, but before the post-mortem, which began at 2:00 pm, or thereabouts.
Then we read that the photographer removed his camera at 4:30, the body had been removed at 4:00 pm.
So it seems the camera was left in the room until 4:30.

The photographer in Victorian London is an artist, whereas the doctors & detectives are professionals. Class distinctions were very much observed in those days.
Once the post-mortem has commenced, the artist will wait until they are finished if he had been told to use his camera after the post-mortem, as he had before the P.M.

There must have been a reason for him to remain at the scene, otherwise we would expect him to have left once the P.M. began to go and process his plates.

Wickerman
Yes I am happy to accept what you say of course.
The evidence fully backs your view that the photos were taken around 4pm.
If I came across as disagreeing with you that was not my intention.
Regards
Steve

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon & GUT

Here's a .gif update of the Goad Plan with things in place in #13 (bed, chair and partition correctly positioned).

Terrific!

Jon
Do Prater's stairs HAVE to go in that direction? could there be alternatives that would allow Prater's door close to #13's door?

Not at all, try as many variations as you can think of.
I think it's important to keep all the parameters in mind, thats all, as we have tried to do with this version.
We can't possibly 'know' where the stairs were.

Is our aim to get Prater's door on the other side of the partition?

No, the reason I asked if that door could move forward is just to be sure that this side door does not conflict with a partition across the back of the 'shed'.
I can see from this new .gif that it looks good.

Also
I could do with some advice on the split between the shed and the stairs.

Are you talking about that zig-zag wall that I see you have removed?
If so, I would just run that rear partition with, the brown door, across the back of the shed, and leave it at that.
The space you end up with on the ground floor, between the shed and room 13, should (in my opinion) be the same as the space above.
There could also have been a 'storeroom' on that level too, or at least a room the same size.

[Wickerman]

Wickerman
Yes I am happy to accept what you say of course.
The evidence fully backs your view that the photos were taken around 4pm.

I wasn't aware I implied that, there were two times the photo's could have been taken.

If I came across as disagreeing with you that was not my intention.
Regards
Steve

No, I didn't see any disagreement, I was trying to condense what I wrote as it was spread across two different posts.

Disagreement is good, keeps the brain cells active

[Pierre]

It was 5,11 ft from the wall according to Goad's.

This just gets better & better Richard.
Well done!

I especially like pic #2, and with that in mind, does this mean the passage door (Praters Door), moves a little closer to Kelly's room?

But as long as people are happy there is no reason to be accurate.

[Pierre]

This just gets better & better Richard.
Well done!

I especially like pic #2, and with that in mind, does this mean the passage door (Praters Door), moves a little closer to Kelly's room?

Yes. Everything can be moved as long as people here like it. Mary gets killed over and over again.

[richardh]

Pierre, Glad you've turned up

Is it the red or blue window you are interested in?

But as long as people are happy there is no reason to be accurate.

[GUT]

Yes. Everything can be moved as long as people here like it. Mary gets killed over and over again.

What?

[Wickerman]

But as long as people are happy there is no reason to be accurate.

Yes. Everything can be moved as long as people here like it. Mary gets killed over and over again.

Would I be right in thinking you are not pleased about something?

[Elamarna]

I think you will find that Pierre will only accept a final plan that put the "partition door" in exactly the position shown on the Goad map. Is that true Pierre?
There can be no consensus because that is how he sees it.

[Pierre]

Pierre, Glad you've turned up

Is it the red or blue window you are interested in?

Hi Richardh,

It is the red one!

That window should be a window in the upper passage, that is, in the corridor where there should have been doors giving access to the upper rooms in both 26 and 27.

It was just a simple corridor I think and the stairs can only have been placed in number 26, since there is one door leading to the stairs from the ground passage.

But there is a problem with the drawing from the newspaper. If you look at Goadīs, there is no way that the wall (marked with _ _ _ _ _ ) in McCarthys shop (S) could have cut through the window above since the passage has the same width on both sides.

In the drawing, the arch is placed OVER this wall but it can not have been looking that way. This is very clear when one compares it to Goads: The archway can only have started at the wall marked _ _ _ .

So the question is if one should believe Goadīs or the newspaper.

According to Goadīs, it could have looked like this.

I am waiting patiently to see the new model and am really looking forward to see it and hear what all the others think about it.

Best Wishes Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

Once again its prudent to remember that the street facing door at 27 accessed the interior of 27, and the access way in the archway was to the tuck shop. The assumption that the window over the archway was in a corridor between the buildings isn't substantiated anywhere in the historical literature. I could see that window being in a back alcove of a room on that floor, a feature which only finely detailed drawings would show. If that's correct it may have offered that room its only ventilation, since I believe it did not have a Dorset street window.

[Wickerman]

In the drawing, the arch is placed OVER this wall but it can not have been looking that way. This is very clear when one compares it to Goads: The archway can only have started at the wall marked _ _ _ .

Pierre.
A dashed line (_ _ _ _ _) also means a wall beneath a room.

Millers Court passage shows a solid line on one side because this wall extends through all floors of the property, it is a load bearing wall. This is also the property line, whereas the dashed line only exists at the ground floor level, the floor above passes over the wall beneath and is part of No.27.

As the legend below points out:

WOODEN OR PLASTER PARTITION, OR WALL SOME FLOORS ONLY



All options of the symbol (yes, a dashed line is a symbol) must be considered, but as internal partition walls are not shown in the Goads Plan, it can only be a .....WALL, SOME FLOORS ONLY.

Wooden & Partition walls do exist, but externally, as rooftop structures, a Penthouse or Loft, and at ground level, as a Gallery which is a type of Boardwalk, for instance.