Prater's stairs

[David Orsam]

I can't help thinking that the "problem" would be very simple to resolve in any event. Once in through the main door, customers for the shop could turn left and enter the shop (which may or may not have its own door), while tenants could climb a staircase to the rented rooms protected by a door situated either at the bottom or the top of the staircase.

[David Orsam]

On Richard's model, I can't offer any way of improving it and it's both great and amazing that a consensus seems to have been reached.

[Elamarna]

Yes I think it is a wonderful achievement by Richard.

[SuspectZero]

In 1891, the Census shows three McCarthy families, plus two female domestics and one unrelated married couple, occupying No.27 Dorset St.

Has anyone read the reports of the murder that took place in the building in 1891 or '92? I seem to recall it gave a fairly good description of the layout. Might help in fine tuning the model.

[Wickerman]

Has anyone read the reports of the murder that took place in the building in 1891 or '92? I seem to recall it gave a fairly good description of the layout. Might help in fine tuning the model.

I used the Kate Marshall murder case from 1899, is that what you mean?

[David Orsam]

Has anyone read the reports of the murder that took place in the building in 1891 or '92? I seem to recall it gave a fairly good description of the layout. Might help in fine tuning the model.

If you mean the 1899 murder there's a link to it in #20 in this thread. It's what has finally convinced me that the partition and staircase couldn't be where I originally thought it was.

The key evidence is of David Roberts in room 19, referring to Charles Amory's room 20 (highlighted by me in bold):

"I laid the child down in the bed, and rushed to the prisoner, and claimed her by her two wrists, and struggled with her till I got her out of the door on to the landing, where I kicked the partition and called for help—(referring to the plan) this shows the position—I cannot read or write, but I can see it—the window is at the foot of the bed, the door opens into the passage—I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom—Amory came out of his room—during the struggle with the prisoner my wife came out of her room and fell against me, I was standing up, struggling with the prisoner; I had still got her by the wrists—I then let go of her left hand and secured the knife from her right hand, and handed it to Amory—we were then on the ground to-gether—we fell against Amory's door, we could not get any further, and we both fell on the ground there—I took the knife out of her right hand—I could not say"

Also Kate Marshall stated:

"On November 26th I was living at 26, Dorset Street, with the deceased woman, Mr. Roberts, and one child, on the first floor back-room—the deceased and I carried on the trade of whipmakers—the room occupied by Amory is separated from ours by a passage and a spare room, which is used at nights to put lodgers with their children in".

Amory said of the partition that it was "all woodwork" but he was talking about a different part of the building to where Mary's partition was.

[Joshua Rogan]

In 1891, the Census shows three McCarthy families, plus two female domestics and one unrelated married couple, occupying No.27 Dorset St.

That's interesting....in a speech he gave defending Dorset Street in 1901, McCarthy said;

"There are four shops - one fish-shop and three general shops and it is a REMARKABLE COINCIDENCE that the three shops are all of THAT SAME HISTORICAL NAME, "McCarthy." ("Good luck to the lot of em!") Though THIS IS THE CASE, they belong to three separate and distinct families".

I thought this might have been some sort of local in-joke, but if there really were three sets of McCarthys maybe it was true. Is there any way to know if the three families in no.27 were all related or, by some remarkable coincidence, 'separate and distinct'?

[Wickerman]

That's interesting....in a speech he gave defending Dorset Street in 1901, McCarthy said;

"There are four shops - one fish-shop and three general shops and it is a REMARKABLE COINCIDENCE that the three shops are all of THAT SAME HISTORICAL NAME, "McCarthy." ("Good luck to the lot of em!") Though THIS IS THE CASE, they belong to three separate and distinct families".

I thought this might have been some sort of local in-joke, but if there really were three sets of McCarthys maybe it was true. Is there any way to know if the three families in no.27 were all related or, by some remarkable coincidence, 'separate and distinct'?

Interesting, I don't recall reading that before.

McCarthy was a common name, there was a family of McCarthy's living at Breezers Hill, where Mary lodged for a while.

The Census for 1891 at No.27 Dorset St. does not provide relationships between the three heads of the McCarthy families.
We have John McCarthy (with wife, Mary), aged 42, General Shop Keeper, Born Spitalfields.
Daniel McCarthy (with wife, Anne), aged 27?, Grocer, Born Southwark.
John McCarthy (with wife Elizabeth), aged 48?, Grocer, Born Dieppe, France.

Yes, two McCarthy's named John
Spitalfields John had one son, while Dieppe John had four daughters.

As far as I know, no genealogical study has been done on these McCarthy's.

[Rosella]

^ Didn't Dieppe John also have one son John, (known as Steve) who was unhappily married to the music hall star Marie Kendall? I believe a couple of Dieppe John's daughters were also on the stage.

[Joshua Rogan]

How confusing! Wasn't his son called John, too (until he changed it to Steve)?

So which John was known as Jack? Which one was involved in the illegal boxing match? Who was T McCarthy (also at the 1901 meeting)?

I may have to lie down for a while...

Sorry Rosella, you beat me to the son's name. Have all these John's been conflated into one?

[Rosella]

But who was Daniel McCarthy, a nephew of one of the Johns? The A-Z says that Tom Wescott had a valiant try at sorting them all out in Ripper Notes, April 2006, under the title 'The McCarthys of Dorset St'!

[DJA]

His father and/or brother.

Family Christian name.

Ours is John for the first borne male in line.

We are also of Irish descent. Scotti.

Mary Ann Kelly ditto.

[Wickerman]

If 27 went over the archway - how did the tenants in 27 get into their rooms?

Did McCarthy have a lot of people running out an in of his front door in 27?


The question is important since that wasn´t the case for the shop in number 26 (maybe a "shed" in 88 but according to Goad´s actually a shop). There was a door in that side of the passage. So the tenants did not have access to the front door.

So WHY is there no door in McCarthy´s side of the passage?

Did all the tenants really go through the front door, that is, through McCarthy´s shop?

Regards Pierre

Pierre.

The Goads series of maps are used by insurance companies to determine fire risks. They were not used by firemen to enter buildings, no-one used these maps to navigate the premises shown.

"...the Goad 1888 series of fire insurance maps of London that were originally produced to aid insurance companies in assessing fire risks. The building footprints, their use (commercial, residential, educational, etc.), the number of floors and the height of the building, as well as construction materials (and thus risk of burning) and special fire hazards (chemicals, kilns, ovens) were documented in order to estimate premiums."

There was never an intention to show every access point to every building.
Openings in internal walls are shown to indicate where fire may penetrate from room to room.
Front & rear doors & windows are assumed in all buildings.

[MBDecre]

Agree re David at post 451. I think that answers pierre's question in all likelihood. Your arrangement plan for 27's ground floor at the front is very common in victorian houses in England, and even now it's still common.

Also common, additonal to David O's arrangement for 27's ground floor, is an narrowish L shape passage around the staircase base, down along the stair side, with another door on the left to a room narrower than and behind the front/shop room (loosing some of its width to the passageway).

Re upstairs at 26. Reading the old-bailey transcript of the Kate Marshal 1899 manslaughter, it seemed to me that the partition which the husband kicked at might have been closer to the stair-head. And the 'store-room', if used as an adhoc room by families arriving at short notice, might be a bit broader. These two circumstances would mean the landing was smaller, and the separation between room 20 (Amory) from room 19 (Roberts) becomes more of a "passage" (as Mr Robert's describes it). It does seem likely, considering the descriptions by Roberts, Amory, and other witnesses. The space as they describe it sounds claustrophobic, as though they were all jammed in and knocking against each other during the struggle. I could be wrong, It was just a sense I got. It might be a difference of only a foot or two move of wall positions.

Either way I think Richardh's final work is brilliant. Did anyone else feel a eerie feeling moving so silently and slowly around it? To achieve this even without any textures, wall/floor detail etc, is very good.

Does richard plan windows, and doors, textures etc; more like his MJK room video? Much praise for his and others' considerable effort.

[MBDecre]

Re Jon's post 458 and those by others in relation - very interesting stuff. A lot of Irish in Whitechapel and surrounds. Notions that MJK had relatives, even if distant ones, in the area, seems quite possible. I think a few have suggested it before. Likewise her potential relationship, familial or otherwise, with landlord McCarthy. Such links might well explain why she was allowed such high rent arrears. Not originally my ideas, but hearing the info just below brings them to mind again.

Re the multiple McCarthies... sometimes i wonder, if we ever had just one piece of info that was simple and unambiguous in the JtR case - I think we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves!!!!
Grin.