Prater's stairs

[David Orsam]

Does anyone have the link for the online Goad map for Miller's Court please?

Here you go...

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/zoomify150907.html

[richardh]

Oh Brilliant. Thanks David.

Here you go...

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlin...ify150907.html

[Robert St Devil]

Hi David.

The first two sentences: ive always been under the impression that the mjk door was added , or "cut into the wall", later. If that is the case, the staircase looks to be running the width of the room, bisecting it in half. This could have cut the back room (No. 13) from the front (the shed). At that point, access to the back room would either be: 1) thru the windows (blech!), or 2) they left just enough space at the foot of the stairs to walk by(??).

Eitherway, there would be no space for a partition door.

[Wickerman]

Well, for what it's worth, here is what I've done today in relation to the staircase from the shed to the 1st floor landing (as per Stephen's drawing).

Richard.

Kate Marshall lived in room 19, the one above Kelly's.
Marshall told the Court:
"...the room occupied by Amory (ie; No.20 over shed) is separated from ours by a passage and a spare room,..."

As you will appreciate, the above diagram does not conform to this detail.

[Elamarna]

David,

join the club, that is two of us he has now accused of being liars.

I think that is unacceptable.

I have been reading this thread since Richard started it and started to get concerned at the weekend,

my concern was well founded.

If Stephen, could tell us what he based his plans on it may help. I do know from reading the boards for years, that he was looking at this a few years back

[David Orsam]

Hi David.

The first two sentences: ive always been under the impression that the mjk door was added , or "cut into the wall", later. If that is the case, the staircase looks to be running the width of the room, bisecting it in half. This could have cut the back room (No. 13) from the front (the shed). At that point, access to the back room would either be: 1) thru the windows (blech!), or 2) they left just enough space at the foot of the stairs to walk by(??).

Eitherway, there would be no space for a partition door.

I see. I think what was confusing me is that you were basing your post on an assumption that the MJK door was added later but I don't know if it was or wasn't. Nor do I know when the staircase was added. Possibly there was another staircase at the front of what was originally a residential property but when room 13 was created a new staircase was added, so that the front could be used as a shop, and Prater's door was cut into the wall. There seem to be a lot of possibilities.

Also, what I am saying is exactly the same as Richard's current model (but smaller). So where are you saying the staircase should go?

And when you said "partition door" did you mean "partition wall"?

[richardh]

Yeah it does.... sort of!

Richard.

Kate Marshall lived in room 19, the one above Kelly's.
Marshall told the Court:
"...the room occupied by Amory (ie; No.20 over shed) is separated from ours by a passage and a spare room,..."

As you will appreciate, the above diagram does not conform to this detail.

[David Orsam]

David,

join the club, that is two of us he has now accused of being liars.

I think that is unacceptable.

Well I think it's fair to say that he lost all credibility a very long time ago so I'm not bothered by it and I don't think you need to worry either.

Just love the way he suddenly admits to reading my posts after all! I always knew he could do this pre-logging in. It's obvious!

I enjoyed the way you caught him out, incidentally, by quoting his words back at him yesterday after he denied calling you a liar.

Perhaps he will deny having called me a liar tomorrow!

[David Orsam]

I have been reading this thread since Richard started it and started to get concerned at the weekend,

my concern was well founded.

If Stephen, could tell us what he based his plans on it may help. I do know from reading the boards for years, that he was looking at this a few years back

I feel very sorry for Richard. He's producing these wonderful 3D models, faithfully created on the basis of plans he is given, then everyone tells him he's got it all wrong! It's not his fault!!!

[richardh]

So (getting back on track again!) You think that the goad's map is the way to proceed?

[richardh]

Well, I wasn't actually given them. I took them from the forums and hoped/presumed they were the way to go.

No matter.

I feel very sorry for Richard. He's producing these wonderful 3D models, faithfully created on the basis of plans he is given, then everyone tells him he's got it all wrong! It's not his fault!!!

[David Orsam]

So (getting back on track again!) You think that the goad's map is the way to proceed?

If you are asking me, I honestly don't know. But any model that is inconsistent with that map is going to be open to potential criticism because it is arguably the best and most accurate evidence we have about the building.

There do seem to be a few unresolved issues about interpretation of that map though.

[Elamarna]

Richard

Apologies for going off track,

please don't be disheartened

Elamarna

[Stephen Thomas]

Does anyone have the link for the online Goad map for Miller's Court please?

Richard

The site that David directed you to is tricky to traverse and as I remember the reproduction isn't very clear. You need to go to JTR Forums and find the JTR Forums Individual Forums Section. It's toward the bottom of the list of sections. Then click on Rob Clack's name (11th line down) and then click on Murder Site Maps. Rob told me years ago that he had spent a lot of time and effort obtaining them from a records office. Now there's a top Ripperologist for you.

As for your latest pics I have to tell you that you've cracked it. The main stairwell is in exactly the right place and continues like that to the top of #26. The only thing that needs to be done on that picture is that the storeroom needs to be represented by just its doorway with its near wall tight against the staircase.

Well done

[Wickerman]

Richard.
Any design for the internal layout of No.26 Dorset St. 'must' be consistent with what we 'know' from external sources.

The Goads scale is 40ft = 1 inch, the actual width of No.26 Dorset St., including Kelly's room is 3/8" wide = 15ft.

The depth of Kelly's room is 1/4" = 10ft.


Points obtained from the Kate Marshall murder case.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18990109-124&div=t18990109-124

The door for room 19 opened onto a landing/passage and, a partition being the back wall of room 20 (over the shed), was 9ft away.

Between rm 19 and rm 20 was a storeroom and a passage/landing.
Tenant of rm 20 could see the door of rm 19 from his doorway (ie, almost opposite?)

The partition across the back of rm 20 ends at the storeroom.
This same partition also divides rm 20 from the staircase.
The partition is all woodwork.

There was no light in the staircase area.

The passage was at the head of the stairs.