Prater's stairs

[David Orsam]

From our point of view, it makes no difference how far down the passage "Prater's door" was

I think it does from Richard's point of view as he has to make a decision about exactly where it was!

And if it was where the Goad map seems to place it, then it throws into some doubt the precise location of the staircase (which is, after all, the subject matter of this thread!).

[richardh]

Back on track !

This is a new layout based on the drawings of Stephen Thomas (hope you don't mind me using them?).

Please provide feedback.

Q: Should the shed have stairs to the 1st floor landing?
Q: I can't fathom that spiral staircase in the centre of Stephen's drawing. Can this be further explained to me?
Q: the stairs on the 1st floor and the stairs on the 2nd floor - are they going in the right direction?
Q: didn't include the 'original staircase' which leads from the shed up to the landing because I couldn't get it to fit within the configuration I have at the moment. This needs explaining please.

I may have messed up big time with the stairs because the drawings configuration confused me. Can you put some direction arrows in the drawings?

[David Orsam]

the Goads Plan shows an opening, and all the press accounts agree that there were only two doors into No.26, Kelly's was the second, "Praters" was the first, there were no others mentioned.

No, true, but the press accounts do mention a gate. The one you quoted didn't say exactly where it is. I appreciate that it could be where the windows would have been at the front of the property but I can't help feeling that replacing the windows with a gate would have been one fairly major bit of construction work. And we have one newspaper account which says the "windows" of number 26 were boarded up. I assume you say that this report was completely wrong because 26 didn't have any windows (something I find a very unusual in itself.)

I'm also not entirely convinced as to why Prater's door would have been included on a map which does not seem to include doors at all. I mean, Kelly's door is also within a brick wall but that is not included. Why Prater's?

I can't yet entirely rule out a gate in my mind but would be interested in knowing the width of a Costermonger's barrow as per my earlier post.

[Wickerman]

No, true, but the press accounts do mention a gate. The one you quoted didn't say exactly where it is. I appreciate that it could be where the windows would have been at the front of the property but I can't help feeling that replacing the windows with a gate would have been one fairly major bit of construction work. And we have one newspaper account which says the "windows" of number 26 were boarded up. I assume you say that this report was completely wrong because 26 didn't have any windows (something I find a very unusual in itself.)

No.26 had windows at the front, the front room was originally the front room of a house.
what I was alluding to was, it is not a major feat of remodeling to take out the brickwork beneath each of the two front windows, then remove the remaining brickwork between the two windows, leaving a large open rectangle for access.
Obviously the remaining brickwork above the windows would require the installation of a beam or RSJ for support.
McCarthy must have fabricated a wooden gate to cover this hole in the wall.

I'm also not entirely convinced as to why Prater's door would have been included on a map which does not seem to include doors at all. I mean, Kelly's door is also within a brick wall but that is not included. Why Prater's?

Take a look at this section of plan, the blue circle is another opening marked "1st" (meaning only in the ground/first floor).
This is also inside a passage, but the opening is in a firewall.



The red circle is an opening in an upper floor, the "3rd".

If you look slowly over the dwg you will see other openings, there are many of them, hardly any carry a notation of any kind.

I can't yet entirely rule out a gate in my mind but would be interested in knowing the width of a Costermonger's barrow as per my earlier post.

The one I posted weeks ago was about 4ft wide axle hub to axle hub.

[Wickerman]

I can't yet entirely rule out a gate in my mind but would be interested in knowing the width of a Costermonger's barrow as per my earlier post.

Here are a couple of Coster's barrows, no way of telling their widths.

[GUT]

The interesting thing about that sketch is that it only shows a single door down the entire passage. Yet if you look at the 1899 sketch posted in this thread at the time of the Eliza Roberts murder we see a door almost adjacent to the door to Room 13. So one of those sketches must be wrong.

And that is perhaps the biggest problem.

We just don't know?

Which is right, are they both wrong? What was changed over the years?

[GUT]

This is what I thought the solution to the problem might be but, if the plan is accurate, the space between the windows and the brick wall is only 9ft and you are surely going to need at least 3ft (more?) to squeeze in a space for the corridor to the staircase. That takes the width of Mary's room down to just 6ft. It's very small. Is it possible do you think?

A couple of things.

1. Do we need a corridor in addition, if we have a 4' staircase in a 9' space we have about 4' beside the first flight of stairs, and under the return flight.

[Wickerman]

How wide was a Costermongers barrow and how wide was Miller's Court?

(I've seen 2ft 10" given as the answer to the latter but is this confirmed?)

This one is given as 970 x 1040 x 2220 mm.

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/L/L02/L02452_10.jpg

[David Orsam]

No.26 had windows at the front, the front room was originally the front room of a house.
what I was alluding to was, it is not a major feat of remodeling to take out the brickwork beneath each of the two front windows, then remove the remaining brickwork between the two windows, leaving a large open rectangle for access.
Obviously the remaining brickwork above the windows would require the installation of a beam or RSJ for support.
McCarthy must have fabricated a wooden gate to cover this hole in the wall.

So just to clarify. You are quite sure that the newspaper report quoted by Pierre about the windows of Dorset Street having been boarded up is false?

[GUT]

Back on track !

This is a new layout based on the drawings of Stephen Thomas (hope you don't mind me using them?).

Please provide feedback.

Q: Should the shed have stairs to the 1st floor landing?
Q: I can't fathom that spiral staircase in the centre of Stephen's drawing. Can this be further explained to me?
Q: the stairs on the 1st floor and the stairs on the 2nd floor - are they going in the right direction?
Q: didn't include the 'original staircase' which leads from the shed up to the landing because I couldn't get it to fit within the configuration I have at the moment. This needs explaining please.

I may have messed up big time with the stairs because the drawings configuration confused me. Can you put some direction arrows in the drawings?

Richard

I really like the 2nd one down on the left, but the stairs fom 1st to 2nd floor (UK Naming not US) I'd have going above those from Ground to 1.

[David Orsam]

The one I posted weeks ago was about 4ft wide axle hub to axle hub.

If that's the case then I grant you it can't work because the passage can't have been more than 3ft.

Ironically, the barrow on the left in the photo you have posted looks less than 3ft in width but I agree that most of them seem to be too wide.

[GUT]

A couple of things.

1. Do we need a corridor in addition, if we have a 4' staircase in a 9' space we have about 4' beside the first flight of stairs, and under the return flight.

The second thing is that for a few periods I lived in rooms about 6' wide.

For about 15 years I shared a room 9x6 with my brother who was 5 years older than me.

Then while working for he RAAF I had a room 12x6. With a bad 4' wide

So I don't see 6 foot as totally unrealistic.

[Wickerman]

So just to clarify. You are quite sure that the newspaper report quoted by Pierre about the windows of Dorset Street having been boarded up is false?

Pierre posted a newspaper sketch where wooden paneling covered the front of No.26.

I don't recall saying his report was false, the reporter could easily have believed the police boarded the front up when in fact it was a permanent modification done by McCarthy to access his shed.

[David Orsam]

A couple of things.

1. Do we need a corridor in addition, if we have a 4' staircase in a 9' space we have about 4' beside the first flight of stairs, and under the return flight.

When I said "corridor" I just meant the space leading from "Prater's" door to the stairs that we can see in Richard's latest model. It will be interesting to know what his measurements are (and, in particular, whether Pierre will approve it!!!)

[Wickerman]

If that's the case then I grant you it can't work because the passage can't have been more than 3ft.

You've lost me David, what does the width of the passage have to do with anything?
The coster's barrows are stored in the front room of No.26, they don't go down Millers Court passage.