Prater's stairs

[Michael W Richards]

OK. So now you are telling me I must believe that in Mary´s room, which was 2,85 meters wide, there was also a partition wall, parallell to the original brick wall? WHY?

The original "brick wall" as you call it was simply the access point to the salon, it wasn't a brick wall but an opening framed by brick.

I would think that the definitions of the word partition should have helped you a bit with this...and the knowledge that the space was formerly used by the tenants of #26 Dorset as a sitting room or salon.

[Elamarna]

ruining a great thread

Hello everyone.

this was a really great thread, some good work, some disagreements and plenty of information, even if there was a mistake or two.

Now the last few pages are getting heated just the same as other threads.

I did ask a few days ago not to let this happen.

It seems that while most are prepared to discuss in order to gain knowledge, Some just won't to push one point of view, there is no discussion, it is they know the truth and others don't.
Gaining knowledge is not what they seek

Its actually a very patronising view.

Anyway as I am no expert in this type of thing, i will not comment until Richard finishes his work, and then i will say great

[David Orsam]

The why not call it a door or doorway or a locked door or a sealed door rather than a partition?

Well exactly. Dr Phillips referred to the bedstead being "close up against the wooden partition". He wasn't stupid. If he meant a "wooden door" he would have said so.

[David Orsam]

The original "brick wall" as you call it was simply the access point to the salon, it wasn't a brick wall but an opening framed by brick.

I'm not disagreeing with this but am having trouble visualising it, especially in relation to the wooden partition which must have been there.

Bearing in mind that the map is dated May 1890 are you saying that the opening framed by brick was there in 1888? If so, where was the partition vis a vis that opening? Are you able to add the partition as a dotted line to that map?

[Pierre]

It seems that while most are prepared to discuss in order to gain knowledge, Some just won't to push one point of view, there is no discussion, it is they know the truth and others don't.

I assume you are talking about me. So I will answer this.

Steve, if showing that there is a brick wall in Kelly´s room, using a plan (Goad´s Fire Insurance Plan) equals pushing a point of view, it is very easy to do that.

Anyone can see the brick wall and the doorway.

And add MJK1 to this and you still needn´t push any point of view. There is a door behind her bed.

Regards Pierre

[Robert St Devil]

The problem is that Pierre is saying there is a door in the brick wall. That could have a gap to allow the light through.

David Orsam.
Its just the way Prater puts those two sentences together at the inquest. It alludes to the idea of a partition wall, one that was thin, not brick. But her not being entirely specific... {exhales}

[Pierre]

Elizabeth Prater claimed that she could see no light coming though the cracks in the partition wall as she went upstairs. Her statement backs that of Mary Ann Cox's in terms of the timing of the dark and silent room.

No, Michael. That is NOT what Prater claimed. She said:

I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room.

No "cracks". No "partition WALL". Just "the partition".

http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...est_kelly.html

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

David Orsam.
Its just the way Prater puts those two sentences together at the inquest. It alludes to the idea of a partition wall, one that was thin, not brick. But her not being entirely specific... {exhales}

It does not allude to a "partition WALL". She says "the partition".

And through your message I saw what David wrote:

"Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post

The problem is that Pierre is saying there is a door in the brick wall. That could have a gap to allow the light through."

David is right in that.

Regards Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not disagreeing with this but am having trouble visualising it, especially in relation to the wooden partition which must have been there.

Bearing in mind that the map is dated May 1890 are you saying that the opening framed by brick was there in 1888? If so, where was the partition vis a vis that opening? Are you able to add the partition as a dotted line to that map?

Sorry if I was unclear. The access way to the salon may well have had a door, although it needn't have to fit the description of an average Victorian sitting room. If there was a door then both sides of the wall supporting the door would be plastered brick. This would have been disassembled when the more permanent segmenting of the room from the house was done. Which is why the door nailed into the "partition wall" is closer to the front corner of Marys room than the salon opening would have been originally.

[GUT]

It's just a thought but could it go a little like this.

Looking from the street

Originally number 26 had a brick wall with stairs behind it, (in what later became mjks room (but slightly larger than we know it.

Then when the building was sliced up for rooms to live in a orations was erected in MJKs side if the stairs so anyone entering the stairs couldn't see into her room?

I'm hopeless at posting sketches, that then effectively gives 3 rooms, 26, a small room that is now between 26 and Mary's room that is in effect little more than a stair well, (enclosed on one side by the brick wall on Giads and the Partition spoken of in evidence, and finally 13.

You enter 26 from the Street

Pratters stairwell from the passage and Mary's we know about.

As I said just a thought that seems to make the evidence fit, and makes sense (I think) for someone trying to get maximum use out of the building.

[Pierre]

The why not call it a door or doorway or a locked door or a sealed door rather than a partition?

Probably because partitions come in many forms. Google "partition" and you´ll see it can be almost anything from a screen to a door or a wall.

If you search in the British newspaper archive you even find the expression "door partition" in the 19th century. It is a wooden partition with a door in it!

Regards Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

No, Michael. That is NOT what Prater claimed. She said:

I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room.

No "cracks". No "partition WALL". Just "the partition".

http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...est_kelly.html

Regards Pierre

So your argument is that because Elizabeth Prater didn't specify this matter clear enough for you that she must have been talking about a door that was nailed permanently to a structure that completely separated the room from # 26?

Many people including me have asked you to stop creating an imaginary door when none such existed, since it was simply a part of a wall that "cut the room off" from the rest of the house.

I understand your theory such as it is depends on this fallacy, so I would recommend that you either change your theory by adopting the truth as a baseline, or that you identify your posts concerning this matter as fictional.

[Pierre]

It's just a thought but could it go a little like this.

Looking from the street

Originally number 26 had a brick wall with stairs behind it, (in what later became mjks room (but slightly larger than we know it.

Then when the building was sliced up for rooms to live in a orations was erected in MJKs side if the stairs so anyone entering the stairs couldn't see into her room?

I'm hopeless at posting sketches, that then effectively gives 3 rooms, 26, a small room that is now between 26 and Mary's room that is in effect little more than a stair well, (enclosed on one side by the brick wall on Giads and the Partition spoken of in evidence, and finally 13.

You enter 26 from the Street

Pratters stairwell from the passage and Mary's we know about.

As I said just a thought that seems to make the evidence fit, and makes sense (I think) for someone trying to get maximum use out of the building.

Come on! Kelly´s room was only 2,85 meters wide with the brick wall between her room and the other one...

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

So your argument is that because Elizabeth Prater didn't specify this matter clear enough for you that she must have been talking about a door that was nailed permanently to a structure that completely separated the room from # 26?

Not because of her way of specifying things but because there is a brick wall with a doorway in it Goad´s Fire Insurance Plan.

Many people including me have asked you to stop creating an imaginary door when none such existed, since it was simply a part of a wall that "cut the room off" from the rest of the house.

No need to create anything. They photographed it! You see, it can not be - as you write here - merely "a part of a wall", since it is also a part of a doorway in this very wall.

I understand your theory such as it is depends on this fallacy, so I would recommend that you either change your theory by adopting the truth as a baseline, or that you identify your posts concerning this matter as fictional.

Thanks, but you are wrong. My theory is not in any way dependent on this discussion. But it is a detail that is important to all descriptions of the murder on Kelly since it was the only murder - among the C5 - that was committed indoors.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Sorry if I was unclear. The access way to the salon may well have had a door, although it needn't have to fit the description of an average Victorian sitting room. If there was a door then both sides of the wall supporting the door would be plastered brick. This would have been disassembled when the more permanent segmenting of the room from the house was done. Which is why the door nailed into the "partition wall" is closer to the front corner of Marys room than the salon opening would have been originally.

Salon? Sitting room? It was a shop. (S) on the map.

What "partition wall"? There is just a brick wall. So where else would you need to put a door other than in the doorway? On the brick wall itself?

Regards Pierre