Prater's stairs

[Michael W Richards]

To one again address the Phantom Door philosophy:

"A correspondent who last saw the room in which the murder was committed says it was a tenement by itself, having formerly been the back parlour of No. 26, Dorset-street. A partition had been erected, cutting if off from the house, and the entrance door opened into Miller's-court."

Any post that bases a theory on a working door on that wall is erroneous.

[Elamarna]

Good Afternoon

According to the map and the key in Richards last post, the wall between 13 and 26 is not a partition but a brick wall.
This does not seem to fit with all the witness descriptions.
I know its an insurance map, but are we all taking it as gospel when maybe it is not?
The section posted shows no doors or windows, other than the disputed one in the passageway way and the one between 26 and 13, but there obviously were some which are not shown.

happy to be put right on my reading of this.

Elamarna

[Michael W Richards]

Good Afternoon

According to the map and the key in Richards last post, the wall between 13 and 26 is not a partition but a brick wall.
This does not seem to fit with all the witness descriptions.
I know its an insurance map, but are we all taking it as gospel when maybe it is not?
The section posted shows no doors or windows, other than the disputed one in the passageway way and the one between 26 and 13, but there obviously were some which are not shown.

happy to be put right on my reading of this.

Elamarna

I think a little understanding of building materials costs might shed some light on why that wall wasn't brick....it was made of re-used, or in todays vernacular, re-purposed materials that the owner had available to him.

In this case it included an old door.

Here is another press account:

"The house in which the murder was committed is entered by two doors, situated on the right hand side of the passage, and has several rooms. The first door up the court from the street leads to the upper room, but the second door only opens into one room, which is situated on the ground floor. It was in this room that the murder was committed. The fireplace faces the door, and the bed stands behind the door when it is placed open."

I will admit that the press account is contrary to my own belief that the door swung in towards the windows. That to me seems a much better use of that space. But Id happily accept that it didn't, if this account is accurate.

[Elamarna]

Michael,

I agree with the comments about cost of materials.

The point I was making is that we all seem to be accepting the map is accurate, mainly because its an insurance map, but there no doors or windows I can see marked, and the partition wall according to the key is a brick wall.

So the question is just how accurate is it?
It may be the best we have, but should we just accept it without questioning?

Steve

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

I agree with the comments about cost of materials.

The point I was making is that we all seem to be accepting the map is accurate, mainly because its an insurance map, but there no doors or windows I can see marked, and the partition wall according to the key is a brick wall.

So the question is just how accurate is it?
It may be the best we have, but should we just accept it without questioning?

Steve

No, we shouldn't Steve, we also shouldn't assume that the dimensions within particular rooms are to scale.

[richardh]

I'm only posting this .gif image because I just found it on my PC after having forgot I made it some months ago. It shows Prater's door - although it's a little dark - in the position about 10 ft from the front of Dorset street. This image was created when I was doing the Leonard Matters Sun/Shadow simulation of his (Matters') two Dorset Street photos along with the single external photo on No.13.

I will probably develop this into a fly-thru of the shed / Prater's stairs /ground and 1st floor simulation.

[Stephen Thomas]

So, where along that passage is 'Prater's Door'? Is there ANY reliable map/plan etc that explains this?

Hi Richard

Not as such but one doesn't need a map showing a doorway.

We know that the partition was behind Kelly's bed.

We also know that the staircase was directly behind the partition.

If it was directly behind the partition it was therefore part of the two storey back extension of 26 Dorset Street comprising of rooms 13 and 19 above.

The Goad map shows a broken line between the main body of #26 and the back extension. This is not showing a doorway as some people think but is merely indicating that the two storey extension is part of #26 and not a separate dwelling.

Tenants of rooms on the upper floors of #26 were all obliged to walk up these 'Prater's stairs' and would have had the partition on their left and the main back wall of #26 on their right. At the top of this single flight of stairs was a small landing with 2 doors off it. The left hand door was for room #19 (the one above #13) where Eliza Roberts was murdered. On the right is the doorway of the store room (#18 though it's never named as such) and tenants would have to walk through this room to access the first floor landing and the stairs in the stairwell of #26.

[Pierre]

Michael,

I agree with the comments about cost of materials.

The point I was making is that we all seem to be accepting the map is accurate, mainly because its an insurance map, but there no doors or windows I can see marked, and the partition wall according to the key is a brick wall.

So the question is just how accurate is it?
It may be the best we have, but should we just accept it without questioning?

Steve

Hi Steve,

I fail to understand how this issue can be a problem. How can it be difficult?

There is an obvious brick wall in the plan. In the talk of the room there is a partition. What is the partition? It is not a partition where the brick wall is. So where and what can it be? It can only be where the door is. And since there is a door, it can only be the door.

The map is much more reliable than the different press reports. I think everyone knows this.

So, McCarthy´s rooms were of low standard. The standard was no standard. He closed a door, put some wallpaper on it on one side and called the wall a "partition". But the house was built as it was, with it´s walls and doors. Nothing strange about that.

Regards Pierre

[Elamarna]

My Dear Pierre,

The wall between 26 and 13 is shown on the map as a solid line with a break, according to the key this is a "brick wall openings each floor." that is what the key says.

Therefore this should be repeated on the floor above, if an opening is on only 1 floor there is a different symbol.

The wall is referred to as a wooden partition, not arguing about a door being there, the key say that for a wooden or plaster partition is a broken line.

Others had mentioned the apparent lack of doors and windows on the map, I was asking a follow up on that, has i was unsure of why the apparent difference?

Are you telling me A brick wall is a partition wall, and that everyone who described it as a wooden partition is wrong?
If so fair enough.


"But the house was built as it was, with i t´s walls and doors. Nothing strange about that."

I am not sure exactly what point you are making?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Steve,

I fail to understand how this issue can be a problem. How can it be difficult?

There is an obvious brick wall in the plan. In the talk of the room there is a partition. What is the partition? It is not a partition where the brick wall is. So where and what can it be? It can only be where the door is. And since there is a door, it can only be the door. That wall and the doorway created to the courtyard were the sole reasons that the room went from parlour in #26 to room 13 in Millers Court. That doesn't seem to difficult to comprehend for virtually everyone who has studied here in the decade that Ive been here.

The map is much more reliable than the different press reports. I think everyone knows this.

So, McCarthy´s rooms were of low standard. The standard was no standard. He closed a door, put some wallpaper on it on one side and called the wall a "partition". But the house was built as it was, with it´s walls and doors. Nothing strange about that.

Regards Pierre

Your interpretation differs from all descriptions known about that room, which you have been reminded of numerous times. Perhaps the fact that it is referred to as a "partition" wall has little significance to you, but since the definition of the word includes; something that separates or divides, ...or more specific to this issue..."an interior wall or barrier dividing a room, area of a building, enclosure, etc., into separate areas", perhaps it will become clearer. Though I doubt it.

You are proving again and again that you only care about what you personally believe, not about what the facts are. I couldn't care personally what you believe, but Im concerned that your insistence about something that has already been proven to be incorrect is detrimental to new students attempting to understand the basics properly.

There was no access through a door that was fixed in place for use as a partial wall. That's a basic fundamental here.

[David Orsam]

What that symbol is, is actually a notation.
The short diagonal line which looks like a half open door, is a number '1' followed by 'st'
It says "1st", which indicates an opening in the wall on the first floor.
You will notice there is no notation for 'ground floor' in these insurance plans. The first floor is the ground floor.

Thank you Jon. That does solve that puzzle. But it also creates a new one, for me at least.

You are saying that the map shows that there is an opening on the ground floor wall of 26 Dorset Street into the passage? Is that right? If the plan is accurate, it's an opening of some four feet, right? What kind of opening would that have been? Window? Door? Gate? Something else?

[David Orsam]

We also know that the staircase was directly behind the partition.

I'm not questioning this statement at all but could you just remind me how we do know this?

[David Orsam]

The Goad map shows a broken line between the main body of #26 and the back extension. This is not showing a doorway as some people think but is merely indicating that the two storey extension is part of #26 and not a separate dwelling.

Aha! This is rather important. Are you able to elaborate a little on this for us Stephen? I mean, how do you know it to be the case?

I'm not doubting what you say - and it makes sense to me - but would welcome some further explanation because I feel sure that Pierre is going to demand it.

[David Orsam]

So the question is just how accurate is it?
It may be the best we have, but should we just accept it without questioning?

I was wondering this too Steve. How did the Goad map maker get his information? Did he visit each property or did he reply on the original plans?

However, in light of Stephen's post above explaining that the apparent door is not a door at all but an indication that Kelly's room was part of number 26 this question may not be so important.

[Pierre]

Are you telling me A brick wall is a partition wall, and that everyone who described it as a wooden partition is wrong?

No. It is a "partition". It is NOT a "partition wall" since there is already a brick wall there.

= There is NO "partition wall" on the map. There is a brick wall.

So what could the partition consist of? Since there is a brick wall there?

Look at MJK1 and you see it. It consists of a door. And it is placed in the doorway.

[/B]

"But the house was built as it was, with i t´s walls and doors. Nothing strange about that."

I am not sure exactly what point you are making?

My point is that the brick wall is constant. It is always there.

And HOW MUCH SPACE IS THERE FOR A PARTITION WALL THEN?

AND WHY WOULD SOMEONE ADD A "PARTITION WALL" TO THIS PREEXISTING BRICK WALL?

The partition can only be a door and nothing else.

I really want you to understand what I am writing here, that is why I use capital letters.

Please. How can this be difficult to understand?

Do you see this photo? There is a brick wall in it. There was A BRICK WALL in Mary´s room.

Regards Pierre