Prater's stairs

[Joshua Rogan]

Jon, do you have the rest of that Goad map to hand? Or a handy link? I've been trying to find it by going through the British Library online gallery, but there's so many to choose from my eyes are starting to go funny.
According to this report;

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/millerscourt1878.html

The ground floor of No. 6 Miller's Court (strange, I thought 6 was the upstairs?) was 12 x 12ft, so thought this might be useful for comparison.

[richardh]

This is a screen shot (rough draft) of the layout I have so far:

[Wickerman]

Jon, do you have the rest of that Goad map to hand? Or a handy link? I've been trying to find it by going through the British Library online gallery, but there's so many to choose from my eyes are starting to go funny.
According to this report;

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/millerscourt1878.html

The ground floor of No. 6 Miller's Court (strange, I thought 6 was the upstairs?) was 12 x 12ft, so thought this might be useful for comparison.

Yes, No.6 should be the upstairs with No.5 on the ground floor.
Interesting, if you look at the Goad map, the No.5/6 block (at the far end behind McCarthy's), it looks smaller than the others (1&2, 3&4). Also, tenements 11/12 (opposite Kelly's windows), are small, just like 5/6.
So, if those rooms are 12x12, and they are both smaller than Kelly's room, then here is another indication that 10x10 is wrong.


Joshua.
See if this works.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/zoomify150907.html

[Pierre]

Here's my plan so far:
I didn't jot down the dimensions - just count the squares



To walk around a 3D of this plan use the link (below) to download a VERY rough 3D which should allow you play the scene on your PC / MAC / LINUX

http://autumnofterror.com/files.html

LINK

I have done it this way as an experiment really because not many people seem to be able to open the online WebPlayer version. So this link is a download that will save a zip file to your PC/MAC/LINUX which you have to unzip to play.

Just a test so IF you decided to download and play it just remember that it is a very rough version of the plan above. I thought I'd show what I've done and get feed back. That way the layout (or my version of it) can be discussed and adjusted until we have something we ALL like. Then I can create a final textures and rendered version.

The file is safe - created by me on my PC using UNITY which is a TRUSTED gaming engine. Just Google UNITY 3D if you want to be sure.

thanks (hope it works!)

Hi Simon,

How interesting. From where did you get the facts for this plan?

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Calculating

Hi,

If you use Goad´s map you can calculate the measures of Mary Kelly´s room.

Dorset Street was 25 ft = 7,62 m.

Put a ruler across street on the map and you get 12 cm.

Divide 7,62 by 12. You get that 1 cm = 0,63 m.

Measure the room in 13 Miller´s Court on the same map. It is 4,5 * 8,5 centimeters.

Convert that into meters by multiplying 4,5 and 8,5 with 0,63 respectively.

The measures of the walls in the room in 13 Miller´s Court are 2,85 and 5,39 meters.

Multiply these and you get that the room was 15,42 square meters.

Regards Pierre

[GUT]

Hi,

If you use Goad´s map you can calculate the measures of Mary Kelly´s room.

Dorset Street was 25 ft = 7,62 m.

Put a ruler across street on the map and you get 12 cm.

Divide 7,62 by 12. You get that 1 cm = 0,63 m.

Measure the room in 13 Miller´s Court on the same map. It is 4,5 * 8,5 centimeters.

Convert that into meters by multiplying 4,5 and 8,5 with 0,63 respectively.

The measures of the walls in the room in 13 Miller´s Court are 2,85 and 5,39 meters.

Multiply these and you get that the room was 15,42 square meters.

Regards Pierre

Or about 9' x 16'

[Joshua Rogan]

Cheers Jon! The link itself didn't open for me, but I found it using the sheet reference it contained. Saved me a lot of trawling through the hundreds of pages of maps, thanks.

Judging purely by eye, 15 x 12 does look about right.

I also found a site with an accurate-looking plan of Miller's Court. It's got the same slight wiggles as the Goad map, rather than nicely straight walls all the way down, so looks lie it's taken from that. Also has the names of the known tenants, which is handy.

http://whitechapeljack.com/the-whitechapel-murders/mary-jane-kelly/

Like the other plan (in another thread somewhere) it shows the stairs in no.26 as running straight across the building, no turns. So, if that's correct, it might mean that the corridor on the 1st floor needn't be so wide - the 9ft between doors could be diagonal, or L-shaped?

By the way, do you know what the notations on the Goad map mean? The letters; D=dwelling, S=shop seem straightforward, as is the number=stories. But what does the T stand for? And the bent line that is above it sometimes?

Another thing I noticed is that just over the wall at the end of the court is a confectionery factory. I thought this sounded great, until I realised that it is right up against the privies!

[Pierre]

Cheers Jon! The link itself didn't open for me, but I found it using the sheet reference it contained. Saved me a lot of trawling through the hundreds of pages of maps, thanks.

Judging purely by eye, 15 x 12 does look about right.

I also found a site with an accurate-looking plan of Miller's Court. It's got the same slight wiggles as the Goad map, rather than nicely straight walls all the way down, so looks lie it's taken from that. Also has the names of the known tenants, which is handy.

http://whitechapeljack.com/the-whitechapel-murders/mary-jane-kelly/

Like the other plan (in another thread somewhere) it shows the stairs in no.26 as running straight across the building, no turns. So, if that's correct, it might mean that the corridor on the 1st floor needn't be so wide - the 9ft between doors could be diagonal, or L-shaped?

By the way, do you know what the notations on the Goad map mean? The letters; D=dwelling, S=shop seem straightforward, as is the number=stories. But what does the T stand for? And the bent line that is above it sometimes?

Another thing I noticed is that just over the wall at the end of the court is a confectionery factory. I thought this sounded great, until I realised that it is right up against the privies!

T = tile.
Bent line can be mansard but not always

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Pierre. So it's the roof material and shape? That makes sense, for an insurance map.
Do you have a paper copy yourself, or are you measuring from the screen? My iPad won't let me zoom in until it's 12cm across the road.

And what does your measuring method make the length of the passage into Miller's Court?

[Wickerman]

I superimposed a 10ft x 10ft hatched square on Kelly's room.

Also, I added another square to the left of the hatched square.



The blue line in the side wall of No.26 that forms the passage wall, as can be seen the blue line cuts this second red square almost in half. I say almost because the room is just slightly less than 15ft wide, perhaps 14ft 6in? or thereabouts.

So nominally (rounded numbers), Kellys room is 15ft wide x 10ft deep, according to Goads scale of 1 inch = 40 ft.

[Wickerman]

Or about 9' x 16'

Yep, it appears we are all hovering around the same dimensions.
Once and for all the shape of this room as a rectangle can be put to rest, and 15' x 10' (rounded) assuming goads is accurate enough.

[Wickerman]

It just happens that Brushfield St. (north of Dorset St.) is 40ft wide, property line to property line, and the scale of the Goad map is 40ft = 1 inch. Brushfield St is therefore 1 inch wide.

So it is easy to divide the width of Brushfield St. into four quarters = 0.25 inch each, so each 0.25 inch = 10ft.

Kelly's room is the same size as this dimension in depth, but 1.5x this size in width.

A few inches either way would not be discernible on a 40ft=1 inch scale.

[Joshua Rogan]

Good stuff! But at the risk of over-complicating things, are these the internal or external dimensions? What sort of construction did the walls have? Single, double, or double with air gap?

[Wickerman]

Good stuff! But at the risk of over-complicating things, are these the internal or external dimensions? What sort of construction did the walls have? Single, double, or double with air gap?

External dims Joshua.
Some widths given to streets around Millers Court, Dorset St (25ft), Commercial St. (75ft & 82ft two sep. locations), and Brushfield St. (40ft).

Our scaling is taken from external dimensions if we use the Goad map.

[Wickerman]

Cheers Jon! The link itself didn't open for me, but I found it using the sheet reference it contained. Saved me a lot of trawling through the hundreds of pages of maps, thanks.

Judging purely by eye, 15 x 12 does look about right.

I also found a site with an accurate-looking plan of Miller's Court. It's got the same slight wiggles as the Goad map, rather than nicely straight walls all the way down, so looks lie it's taken from that. Also has the names of the known tenants, which is handy.

http://whitechapeljack.com/the-whitechapel-murders/mary-jane-kelly/

Like the other plan (in another thread somewhere) it shows the stairs in no.26 as running straight across the building, no turns. So, if that's correct, it might mean that the corridor on the 1st floor needn't be so wide - the 9ft between doors could be diagonal, or L-shaped?

By the way, do you know what the notations on the Goad map mean? The letters; D=dwelling, S=shop seem straightforward, as is the number=stories. But what does the T stand for? And the bent line that is above it sometimes?

Another thing I noticed is that just over the wall at the end of the court is a confectionery factory. I thought this sounded great, until I realised that it is right up against the privies!

This link should provide Insurance Plan sheets starting at the top with sheet 142, down at the bottom look for Insurance Plan of London Vol. VIII: Key Plan.

http://gallery.bl.uk/viewall/default.aspx?e=Fire%20insurance%20maps%20and%20plans%20London%20and%20SE&n=52&r=10

There is a legend on that page which explains some of the notations.