Prater's stairs

[Robert]

Hi Richard

What you are doing is very difficult and highly technical, so it's normal to expect one or two false starts.

[GUT]

Guess what happens when you take away 9 from 22 Pierre.

By P's research I'd say 39

[GUT]

Richard
No need to apologise.
Most find your work fascinating, I for one am happy to wait as long as it takes

Elamarna

Me too.

[Pierre]

Use this, Richardh

Thanks Stephen, I could do with some help on this one so If you've got some plans/maps/drawings etc. that I could look at then I would be very grateful indeed.

To be fair to Simon my model of 'Prater's Stairs' wasn't based on anything other than the 1 x 1ft grid squares he used for his plan of No.13.

In my model, the store room is on the 1st floor landing (the 9 x 5 room between the front and back rooms). The shed didn't have an actual store room in the model, it just 'borrowed' space from 'Prater's Stairs divided by a partition.

All that's academic now since the model turned out to be whack!

Thanks for any help you can provide. I'll endeavour to do it right this time (although I can't promise )

Hi Richardh,

You are doing fine work. Use this plan and you can not get it wrong.

Regards Pierre

[richardh]

I will Pierre. Thanks.

Hi Richardh,

You are doing fine work. Use this plan and you can not get it wrong.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

This might turn out to be a very Pierre-like post but I've been looking at the Goad insurance map.

It's apparent that the map does not include the doors or windows to the various buildings depicted, as these, I think, are assumed to exist.

This makes me wonder why a door to 26 Dorset Street in the alley leading to Miller's Court is included in the plan.

I mean, the door to 13 Miller's Court is not on the plan (which is dated 1890) so why the door to number 26?

I may be totally on the wrong track but is it possible that this "door" is not in fact a door but the legendary gate to 26 Dorset Street which allowed the large barrows into the storage area?

In terms of the measurements (following Pierre's lead) that door is 4ft wide which, if accurate, is rather wide for an ordinary door.

Also, if this was the gate, it would, I think make more sense than the windows having been removed at the front of the property to be replaced with a gate next to the front door (as portrayed in Pierre's famous sketch). It would also mean that the newspaper report which said that the windows were boarded up was accurate as was the report which referred to number 26 having a gate.

If, by some amazing fluke, I am right about this, then I assume it would mean that the Elizabeth Prater's entrance door, i.e. the door by which she accessed the staircase, is not included on the map and is further up towards Mary's room which, in terms of its proximity to where the staircase is supposed to be, would seem to make more sense.

I might well be wrong though. The key plan to the Goad map doesn't offer much assistance in respect of doors or gates as far as I can see.

Any thoughts anyone?

[Joshua Rogan]

I don't think it can be, David. The passage was said to be only 2'10" wide; it would be impossible to turn a barrow into a side door, even if it fitted into the passage.

[richardh]

David
Today I was working on a new model basing it, in part, on Pierre's map and measurements. I too got the door width as 4'2" which I also thought was very wide for a door. Also the door symbol on the map suggests an outward opening door. Most doors open inward (like the door to No. 13). I was going to post as much but I thought I've already made an arse of myself with the totally wrong version model. I thought I'd keep quiet and and wait it out. On that map I cannot see the door to No13.

Also, Stephen (Thomas) in an earlier post said:

"I sussed out the inevitable internal layout of 26 Dorset Street and the connection with 13 Millers Court and 'Prater's stairs' years ago and if you want my help in creating a realistic video just ask."
So perhaps he's the one who would be able to shine a light on this?

This might turn out to be a very Pierre-like post but I've been looking at the Goad insurance map.

It's apparent that the map does not include the doors or windows to the various buildings depicted, as these, I think, are assumed to exist.

This makes me wonder why a door to 26 Dorset Street in the alley leading to Miller's Court is included in the plan.

I mean, the door to 13 Miller's Court is not on the plan (which is dated 1890) so why the door to number 26?

I may be totally on the wrong track but is it possible that this "door" is not in fact a door but the legendary gate to 26 Dorset Street which allowed the large barrows into the storage area?

In terms of the measurements (following Pierre's lead) that door is 4ft wide which, if accurate, is rather wide for an ordinary door.

Also, if this was the gate, it would, I think make more sense than the windows having been removed at the front of the property to be replaced with a gate next to the front door (as portrayed in Pierre's famous sketch). It would also mean that the newspaper report which said that the windows were boarded up was accurate as was the report which referred to number 26 having a gate.

If, by some amazing fluke, I am right about this, then I assume it would mean that the Elizabeth Prater's entrance door, i.e. the door by which she accessed the staircase, is not included on the map and is further up towards Mary's room which, in terms of its proximity to where the staircase is supposed to be, would seem to make more sense.

I might well be wrong though. The key plan to the Goad map doesn't offer much assistance in respect of doors or gates as far as I can see.

Any thoughts anyone?

[Robert St Devil]

David Orsam. Did you see the pics that i posted on Page 10? They indicate, i believe, the staircase door under the arch by Marys room. I was hoping th murder of Kitty Ronan might shed some light on the upstairs room layouts. Interested where your gate idea might lead.

[David Orsam]

I don't think it can be, David. The passage was said to be only 2'10" wide; it would be impossible to turn a barrow into a side door, even if it fitted into the passage.

Well if a barrow won't fit into the passage then my suggestion is a non-starter but if it does fit then surely it would be able to turn into a 4ft wide gate?

[David Orsam]

Also, Stephen (Thomas) in an earlier post said:

"I sussed out the inevitable internal layout of 26 Dorset Street and the connection with 13 Millers Court and 'Prater's stairs' years ago and if you want my help in creating a realistic video just ask."
So perhaps he's the one who would be able to shine a light on this?

Perhaps he will show up to assist.

[David Orsam]

David Orsam. Did you see the pics that i posted on Page 10? They indicate, i believe, the staircase door under the arch by Marys room. I was hoping th murder of Kitty Ronan might shed some light on the upstairs room layouts. Interested where your gate idea might lead.

Yes, I did but of course they are only newspaper sketches. The first one isn't consistent with the Goad map if the door on that map is supposed to be the staircase door because it's much too close to Kelly's door. On the second one, the passage looks very short and you can't really see what is down there. That's kind of the problem with all the sketches (and the known photographs) you can't see clearly what is down that passage.

[Robert St Devil]

True. The dissertation on kitty ronan kinda explains, from the witness pov, how she entered the court (breezeway, im guessing) to enter the door leading up to her room.

I have been wondering if 26 and 27 served as a single unit at one time. What are those passageways above the arch called? Does 'that' connect 26 to 27?

[Joshua Rogan]

Well if a barrow won't fit into the passage then my suggestion is a non-starter but if it does fit then surely it would be able to turn into a 4ft wide gate?

Check out the pic of a barrow that Wickerman posted in this thread (#129);

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9281&page=13

Looks way too big to me.

[Stephen Thomas]

I may be totally on the wrong track but is it possible that this "door" is not in fact a door but the legendary gate to 26 Dorset Street which allowed the large barrows into the storage area?

Any thoughts anyone?

Well here are mine, David. To start with, the Goad Maps do not show doorways. What 'pierre' sees as a doorway is some sort of weird aberration on the part of the map-maker signifying nothing. As for the 'legendary gate' there was no such thing. Mrs Prater said she lived over the 'gateway' ie the 'entrance' to Millers Court from Dorset Street. The barrows would have gone through the big wooden doors on Dorset Street as per the contemporary drawing.