Suggestion

[Abby Normal]

Someone who knew Thomas Bowyer I believe.

Regards Pierre

Hi Pierre
do you think that that is how the killer got access to number 26? By obtaining a key and or access from Bowyer?

Was Bowyer in on it as an active accomplice?
or found out afterwards?

Debra Arif found a quote in the paper that had a DIRECT quote from bowyer saying he was In the court in the middle of the night (I believe around 2-3:00) saying he didn't see anyone.
What do you make of this?

Also what do you think was TOD for Mary?

[Michael W Richards]

For clarities sake Jon and Pierre....there was a single door that faced onto Dorset Street, and that door led to the shed. The main access to #26 was through the archway and into the side door, which led to the staircase and a small hallway. There is a wall on the left that was created to separate Marys room which was originally a sitting room or salon, from the house, #26. That wall is made of scrap materials including an old door from the street facing entrance to the shed..it has a faded 26 on it, facing inward to room 13 in Millers Court. An entrance to room 13 was needed when the wall was erected between Marys room and # 26, hence the entrance to Marys room was fabricated, located almost at the corner of the walkway and the alcove entrance.

So...originally 2 doors total..1 to the shed, 1 to the inner #26 and the stairs.

[curious4]

Hi Pierre.

I think you are wrong about MJK3 but correct about the staircase.

In the KITTY RONAN dissertation, Andrew Stevens states that Kitty came down the street, pass up the court, and enter the house.

Hello Robert

"Pass up the court" doesn't mean literally "up". Like "he ran up the road", "she lives up the lane".

Cheers
C4

[DJA]

Where's MK2?

[Robert St Devil]

Hello C4.

...but the dissertation goes on to say the man came down the court t again after her murder. I think MWR is correct about the doors. The dissertation states, from the entrance {i am presuming it is talking about the court entrance} two doors on the right was the MJK murder MEANING hers was the second door. So there must have been a door before it - the staircase door.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello C4.

...but the dissertation goes on to say the man came down the court t again after her murder. I think MWR is correct about the doors. The dissertation states, from the entrance {i am presuming it is talking about the court entrance} two doors on the right was the MJK murder MEANING hers was the second door. So there must have been a door before it - the staircase door.

Thanks Robert, and the situation was as you describe above.

[Robert St Devil]

No problem MWR. On a side note (prob'ly discussed here before) theres a suggestion that the "Lottie" from the dissertation is Julia Vanturney, who is now living in MJKs room. There's an ancestor on RootsChat.com who was tracing J. Vanturney's genealogy: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=653794.0. If true, it might mean Julia did hear singing that nite, but thats another thread entirely.

[Michael W Richards]

No problem MWR. On a side note (prob'ly discussed here before) theres a suggestion that the "Lottie" from the dissertation is Julia Vanturney, who is now living in MJKs room. There's an ancestor on RootsChat.com who was tracing J. Vanturney's genealogy: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=653794.0. If true, it might mean Julia did hear singing that nite, but thats another thread entirely.

Since you mentioned that I thought that Id mention an interview with Mary Ann Cox's niece contained some obvious embellishments when compared with the original story, but she mentions that a Mrs Storey, a friend of Marys, discovered Mary in her room....false of course...but she stated that "Mary had a string on the door so anybody visiting had no need to knock".

Now that's interesting when discussing how people entered that room. Maybe Mary had worked up a string that could be accessed via the broken pane? Or a string just to keep the spring latch off?

[David Orsam]

We have different sources saying different things about 26 Dorset Street:

It had been boarded up after the murder on Kelly. / Or it had gates.

Most of Pierre's false statements in this thread have been exposed but this one still needs correction.

Pierre is wrong to say that any source states that 26 Dorset Street had been boarded up after the murder of Kelly. No source states that at all. The only source cited has been the Evening Express of 12 November, although it should be noted that the story in that newspaper first appeared in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper of 11 November (as below).

What that story makes clear is that the boarding up had been done before the murder of Kelly.

But it is still only a newspaper story. Thus, when Pierre asks, as he does in #169:

'WHY did the police border up 26 Dorset Street?'

his question is based on no more than a single source newspaper report that the police were responsible for the so-called boarding up. It may simply be that a newspaper reporter asked a local person who gave him the wrong information.

As Wickerman has noted, there is at least one other newspaper report which refers to the entrance to the storage area of number 26 as being a 'gate'.

But does anyone actually understand why the boarding up or otherwise of 26 Dorset Street is of any significance to Pierre because I haven't got a clue?

[Michael W Richards]

Most of Pierre's false statements in this thread have been exposed but this one still needs correction.

Pierre is wrong to say that any source states that 26 Dorset Street had been boarded up after the murder of Kelly. No source states that at all. The only source cited has been the Evening Express of 12 November, although it should be noted that the story in that newspaper first appeared in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper of 11 November (as below).

What that story makes clear is that the boarding up had been done before the murder of Kelly.

But it is still only a newspaper story. Thus, when Pierre asks, as he does in #169:

'WHY did the police border up 26 Dorset Street?'

his question is based on no more than a single source newspaper report that the police were responsible for the so-called boarding up. It may simply be that a newspaper reporter asked a local person who gave him the wrong information.

As Wickerman has noted, there is at least one other newspaper report which refers to the entrance to the storage area of number 26 as being a 'gate'.

But does anyone actually understand why the boarding up or otherwise of 26 Dorset Street is of any significance to Pierre because I haven't got a clue?

Pierre is evidently following his belief that Marys killer entered her room using a non-existent entrance on the partition wall that he accessed using the street shed entrance.

When reports refer to the location of Marys room they alternatively referred to Millers Court and 26 Dorset. Perhaps that explains why he thought the front door, (shed door), and windows were boarded, when we have sketches that show that the courtyard windows were in fact boarded.

[David Orsam]

Pierre is evidently following his belief that Marys killer entered her room using a non-existent entrance on the partition wall that he accessed using the street shed entrance.

When reports refer to the location of Marys room they alternatively referred to Millers Court and 26 Dorset. Perhaps that explains why he thought the front door, (shed door), and windows were boarded, when we have sketches that show that the courtyard windows were in fact boarded.

Yes, I understand that Michael (although has he actually referred to the killer going through the partition via the shed entrance as opposed to the archway entrance?)

What I'm asking is what is the significance of the windows being boarded up for Pierre? I'm sure he hasn't confused the two sets of windows because he is basing his belief on the sketch he keeps reproducing of the front of 26 Dorset Street which looks like the windows are boarded up, although he was surprised to discover that it could simply be a gate.

Basically he is saying that the police boarded up the windows to 26 Dorset Street (the shed) after the murder of Kelly for some reason. What I'm trying to get at is: what reason could the police have had for boarding up those windows that Pierre thinks is so important?

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, I understand that Michael (although has he actually referred to the killer going through the partition via the shed entrance as opposed to the archway entrance?)

What I'm asking is what is the significance of the windows being boarded up for Pierre? I'm sure he hasn't confused the two sets of windows because he is basing his belief on the sketch he keeps reproducing of the front of 26 Dorset Street which looks like the windows are boarded up, although he was surprised to discover that it could simply be a gate.

Basically he is saying that the police boarded up the windows to 26 Dorset Street (the shed) after the murder of Kelly for some reason. What I'm trying to get at is: what reason could the police have had for boarding up those windows that Pierre thinks is so important?

The picture you posted David is of Millers Court...and it shows the boarded windows there. There was a gate that controlled access to the archway, but I have no idea what could be the issue with the front windows.

Hard to figure out what people make of information sometimes, often I read some pretty unique interpretations.

[Pierre]

Pierre is evidently following his belief that Marys killer entered her room using a non-existent entrance on the partition wall that he accessed using the street shed entrance.

When reports refer to the location of Marys room they alternatively referred to Millers Court and 26 Dorset. Perhaps that explains why he thought the front door, (shed door), and windows were boarded, when we have sketches that show that the courtyard windows were in fact boarded.

No, Michael. It doesn´t. This does:

You see 26 Dorset Street to the right and it is boarded up. The Evening Express is another source for this. Go back in the thread and you will find it.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

The picture you posted David is of Millers Court...and it shows the boarded windows there. There was a gate that controlled access to the archway, but I have no idea what could be the issue with the front windows.

Hard to figure out what people make of information sometimes, often I read some pretty unique interpretations.

Yes, I know that the picture at the top of the article I posted was of Millers Court but I posted the article because it referred to the windows of 26 Dorset Street having been boarded up prior to murder of Kelly.

I see that Pierre has once again reproduced his favourite sketch of 26 Dorset Street but without any explanation as to the possible significance of the windows being boarded up, if they were indeed boarded up as opposed to that being a gate.

[David Orsam]

The Evening Express is another source for this.

But only a source for the windows being boarded up before Kelly's murder, a point you have failed to address.