Suggestion

[Pierre]

This is a costermongers barrow of the period.



So how would you get several of these into that front room without removing the front of the building?

Hi,

I see a picture of a costermongers barrow and hear some argument to which I could agree.

But I see no reference to a source for the hypothesis of 26 Dorset Street having large gates and later on - when? - getting windows.

I would really appreciate such a reference if you have it.

Regards Pierre

[DJA]

I would dispute the fact that Liz had left her partner permanently.

Um....she had. Believe me. Very permanently.

[curious4]

Have a look at the timelines.

In at least one newspaper interview John Kelly implies they had been back for a bit longer than we believe.
He was also not sure when his boots were pawned.

Stride and Kidney were living in Dorset Street when Liz left for good.

In fact,all three remaining women seemed to be ditching their partners.
Rather like they were expecting to come into some money and leaving their slum life behind them.

Of course Chapman had resided several doors away and Nichols moved next to Eddowes days before she and Kelly went hopping.

Nichols and Chapman were murdered close to the London Hospital.

Of course these women did not know each other and Jack had no anatomical or surgical expertise.

Hello DJA

I would dispute the fact that Liz had left her partner permanently. She had left him before and to me she fits the pattern of a "periodic" drunk, that is one who has (sometimes long) periods of sobriety but in between goes on a bender. Kidney says this: "it was the drink made her leave". From my knowledge of this condition within my own family, the person tries to get away from anyone who might stop them getting drunk.

Best wishes
C4

[Sam Flynn]

Unless, as Steve suggests, there are other undiscovered rooms.

No doubt they'll be found behind secret doors!

Incidentally, there are other Ripperological connections with the Amarna period, as in the famous quote: "I am down on Horemheb, and shan't quit until Ay do get buckled". However, the authenticity of that particular letter is disputed.

[DJA]

Paul Begg in 'Jack the Ripper: The Facts' gives the figures of 12 feet by 8 feet for the rooms (which would make them very tiny) and also writes of Eddowes spending nights in a shed when she had no money. He speculates that it might be in Miller's Court.

Have a look at the timelines.

In at least one newspaper interview John Kelly implies they had been back for a bit longer than we believe.
He was also not sure when his boots were pawned.

Stride and Kidney were living in Dorset Street when Liz left for good.

In fact,all three remaining women seemed to be ditching their partners.
Rather like they were expecting to come into some money and leaving their slum life behind them.

Of course Chapman had resided several doors away and Nichols moved next to Eddowes days before she and Kelly went hopping.

Nichols and Chapman were murdered close to the London Hospital.

Of course these women did not know each other and Jack had no anatomical or surgical expertise.

[DJA]

I'm starting to wonder if Jack was truly a lust serial killer or if his true passion was moving furniture.

OMG. It's turning into another Lechmere thread!

[Rosella]

Paul Begg in 'Jack the Ripper: The Facts' gives the figures of 12 feet by 8 feet for the rooms (which would make them very tiny) and also writes of Eddowes spending nights in a shed when she had no money. He speculates that it might be in Miller's Court.

The Daily Telegraph of 13th of November has Prater stating 'I live at 20 room in Miller's Court, above the shed'. Actually, although a shed is usually a separate building in a garden it is used for storing things, and I think it would be a fairly common description of this store room, which wasn't completely open to the elements.

[Shaggyrand]

I already searched the press section for that source as I couldn't recall if she stayed in the shed, or next to the shed, but I couldn't find the reference anyway.

The earliest reference I recall of Eddows sometimes crashing in A shed is Daily Telegraph- October 3. Though it doesn't become the shed area at no 26 until after November 10th- in anything I've seen anyway.

[Wickerman]

Hi Ros.
Im surprised no one has brought its the storage room where some say Catherine Eddowes stayed at some prior time.

I already searched the press section for that source as I couldn't recall if she stayed in the shed, or next to the shed, but I couldn't find the reference anyway.

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Ros.
Im surprised no one has brought its the storage room where some say Catherine Eddowes stayed at some prior time.

Yea, i've read that the rooms were 10x12, which makes sense. On the 10' side, you would have had the door (2.5 to 3 ft) plus the bed (approx. 5'). So that would leave 2 to 2.5 feet or less for the table between the door and bed AS WELL AS the space between bed and wall.

Outside. The courtyard is described as 15 by 15(?) feet, which measure out too. The length of the room would occupy 12' while the passage way would be the other 3 ft.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello PCDunn.

I have been going back&forth between MJK1, 3 and the outside of the court. I am trying to determine the dustance from the doorknob to the windows edge from the courtyard photo.

I think what Pierre is calling the DOOR is actually the "broken pane" window which is being covered by a drawn shade or a curtain; the vertical thread of light being shown through at the curtain/shade's edge. {Maybe the photog needed it closed because there was too much light shining directly into the lens, dunno}

I am thinking this because it looks like you can see the doorknob in the upper left of the frame, which would mean THAT DOOR opened into the room and struck the table on the side of the bed.

Also the light hitting her organs on the table looks like it may be coming from the 2nd window.

In re: to Pierres assertion that the coroner asked about the movement of furniture, he may have been asking moreso about the table which looks awkward jammed up against the bedside (but, who-knows?). Also, if there was a door in the partition that was opened to take MJK3, then it would be to the left of the brown shaded area in MysterySingers post.

Your thoughts?

[Pcdunn]

Thanks for the info, Rosella. So it makes a lot of sense that the open door "knocked" against the bed-side table!

[Rosella]

The rooms in McCarthy's rents were tiny really, 12 feet by 8 feet. You can imagine it being a bit crowded with several large policemen and the doctor inside!

With regard to the front room of No. 26, (the room used as a storeroom) the Evening Express of 12 November noted 'The room was formerly left open and poor people often took shelter there for the night but when the Whitechapel murders caused so much alarm the police thought the place offered too much temptation to the murderer and so the front was securely boarded up'.

[Pcdunn]

Just a few observations:

The witness comment that when the main door was opened, it "knocked against" the table, does not suggest to me that the table is there as a "barricade"-- merely that Mary's room was rather small, and the door when fully opened hit on the table (presumably the same table seen in the MJK1 photograph as being NEXT to the head of the bed). Perhaps if we could figure out the approximate size (width) of the door, we could calculate the distance from the door to the bed. We might also want to consider if the door opened inward to the right or to the left.

As for the witness comment that the table was "in front" of the bed... Well, does this agree with the positioning seen in the photograph? I think it might be interpreted that "next" and "in front of" could describe the same thing. My only concern is what is the viewpoint of the witness who said this: is he looking in from the window, or from the opened door? Because as I imagine it, if he sees the table "in front of" the bed while looking in from the window, that suggests the table is between the window and the bed-- and doesn't agree with the MJK1 photograph.

I think there is blood depicted in the MJK1 photograph on the partition that her bed was up against. I think this is likely the best evidence against the idea that the door forming part of the partition was a working door into another room.

Finally, older texts in English from Shakespeare's time onwards sometimes use the word "apartment" to mean a bedroom or bed-chamber. The current meaning as a self-contained living space is of much more recent vintage.

[Brenda]

Brenda, if it were done like that and she was facing him, there would be no wall to take the blood splatter, it must have gone close to the murder and out into the lobby of 26. there you go that must be Pierre’s evidence.t

Exactly. He could not have reached in and cut her throat, as the wall has the evidence of the spray. Thus the whole scenario falls apart...unless we are back to the killer moving the bed out of the way, coming in, moving the bed back, then killing Mary....yadda yadda.

I want Pierre to explain this, but I am not holding my breath.