Suggestion

[Wickerman]

Interesting. But the problem is that 26 Dorset Street had a normal front door. And where there should have been gates, there were two windows.

Regards Pierre

Are you talking about that sketch you posted?
There are two windows directly above the front door, but paneling across the front of the building where the old windows should have been.

[Wickerman]

Wickerman,

yes i was some what shocked, but i would suggest the word was used in higher class blocks, not east end slums.

a search of wikipedia gives the following:
"The term apartment is favoured in North America (although flat is used in the case of a unit which is part of a house containing two or three units, typically one to a floor) and also is the preferred term in Ireland. The term flat is commonly, but not exclusively, used in the United Kingdom, Singapore, Hong Kong and most Commonwealth nations."

i will of course admit that it obviously was used in some circles in 1888.

Quite unintentionally, I posted a quote from the Daily Telegraph, Nov. 10th, 1888, in post #105 (above) - where "Kelly's apartment" is referred to.

[Elamarna]

Abberline

Dear Pierre
i am referring to you post number 74
i still cant get hang of quoting here so afraid cut and paste:

"I agree.

But let´s not go into discussion about who decided what on the crime scene.

The point is that there must have been a reason for the statement of Abberline at the inquest and that there are reasons to believe that this reason has to do with circumstances at this crime scene that the police did not want to share with the public."

What may I ask are you talking about with regards to his statement at the inquest, i have reread it many times and nothing seems odd about it.

[Elamarna]

Wickerman,

yes i was some what shocked, but i would suggest the word was used in higher class blocks, not east end slums.

a search of wikipedia gives the following:
"The term apartment is favoured in North America (although flat is used in the case of a unit which is part of a house containing two or three units, typically one to a floor) and also is the preferred term in Ireland. The term flat is commonly, but not exclusively, used in the United Kingdom, Singapore, Hong Kong and most Commonwealth nations."

i will of course admit that it obviously was used in some circles in 1888.

[Pierre]

Agreed, it doesn't mention a gate, though if you know how large a costermongers barrow was, you'd appreciate it would not fit through a front door

A wall of a residential building would have to be removed in order to store barrows in a room.
Whether access was by a lift-off wooden panel, or a hinged gate is immaterial, as far as your question is concerned.
The room was used for storage of wheeled vehicles too large to fit through a conventional front door, so some form of fabricated access door/gate/panel had to be created, and this room was in use for storage long before the murder.

Therefore, the access door/gate/panel also existed long before the murder.

Interesting. But the problem is that 26 Dorset Street had a normal front door. And where there should have been gates, there were two windows.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

DEar Pierre,

just in case you missed it, please clarify what Abberline said?

Sure but what do you mean? Said about what?

Regards Pierre

[Wickerman]

..... (by the way in England we don't generally now and certainly didn’t in 1888 say apartment}

Have you ever thought to enter the word "apartment" into a 19th century British newspaper search?

You might be shocked at the number of hits.

[Wickerman]

Yes, I have seen that one. It has nothing about a gate though. But thanks for posting it.

Regards Pierre

Agreed, it doesn't mention a gate, though if you know how large a costermongers barrow was, you'd appreciate it would not fit through a front door

A wall of a residential building would have to be removed in order to store barrows in a room.
Whether access was by a lift-off wooden panel, or a hinged gate is immaterial, as far as your question is concerned.
The room was used for storage of wheeled vehicles too large to fit through a conventional front door, so some form of fabricated access door/gate/panel had to be created, and this room was in use for storage long before the murder.

Therefore, the access door/gate/panel also existed long before the murder.

[Elamarna]

DEar Pierre,

just in case you missed it, please clarify what Abberline said?

[Elamarna]

Obviously emails crossed.
However:
what evidence do you have that the door was not boarded up, evidence for, was presented in the form of research by Rob House . The inquest does not say if it was or not. that is not evidence.

Without knowing how it was shut off which i am afraid you don't you cannot say the door would be easy to force open.

Your reply "And how would Mary otherwise have gotten into the room..." makes no sense in relation to the question, surely she came via main door?

The comments about the Police are of course you view point, but do you have any evidence to back this up?
You do not answer the question "why did the Police, or if you like certain individuals, move and have the bed photographed, this photo was not for public consumption?"

your comments on MJK3 are interesting but they are your opinion, you do not comment on the various suggestions of a fake.

You have again not answered the question about trying to break in up stairs, i ask you again, what evidence do you have to support your contention that he attempted this?
How can you say using this door as nothing to-do with that theory, it would obviously be so much easier to use the one main entrance, do upstairs first, then attend to MJK.

You do not say what evidence you think was found.

Because the coroner asked about tables and beds it does not follow he had information of this.
Some years ago my brother died suddenly, the coroner at his inquest asked the police and the post mortem Doctor if any evidence of drug use was found, the answer was no, my point being they may ask a question with out knowing the answer.

I never suggested that being in the public domain made it unreliable,

Apart from your first answer which just gives the 2 photos and plan of the room (by the way in England we don't generally now and certainly didn’t in 1888 say apartment}
You provide no Evidence, just your opinion, that is fine, we all do that, but you consistently say you base everything on evidence.

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre.

Well, I was not expecting your question, so I don't have a variety of quotes to post, but here in the Daily Telegraph, 10th Nov. the room is mentioned as part of the description of the murder scene.

In this court there are six houses let out in tenements, chiefly to women, the rooms being numbered. On the right-hand side of the passage there are two doors. The first of these leads to the upper floors of the house in which Kelly was living. It has seven rooms, the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows. A second door opens inwards, direct from the passage, into Kelly's apartment, which is about 15ft. square, and is placed at the rear corner of the building. It has two windows, one small, looking into a yard, which is fitted with a pump.
http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../dt881110.html

Yes, I have seen that one. It has nothing about a gate though. But thanks for posting it.

Regards Pierre

[Wickerman]

There should be an article about boarding up number 26 in the Evening Express where the police is said to be afraid that the killer would come back and use the place. I have not managed to find it. Perhaps someone could try and search for it.

Are you sure you are not getting confused with the windows to room 13 being boarded up?

"The windows of the room where the crime was committed were then boarded up and a padlock put on the door."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/echo/18881110.html

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Do you have a source for what you say about this gate?

There should be an article about boarding up number 26 in the Evening Express where the police is said to be afraid that the killer would come back and use the place. I have not managed to find it. Perhaps someone could try and search for it.

Regards Pierre

Hi Pierre.

Well, I was not expecting your question, so I don't have a variety of quotes to post, but here in the Daily Telegraph, 10th Nov. the room is mentioned as part of the description of the murder scene.

In this court there are six houses let out in tenements, chiefly to women, the rooms being numbered. On the right-hand side of the passage there are two doors. The first of these leads to the upper floors of the house in which Kelly was living. It has seven rooms, the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows. A second door opens inwards, direct from the passage, into Kelly's apartment, which is about 15ft. square, and is placed at the rear corner of the building. It has two windows, one small, looking into a yard, which is fitted with a pump.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881110.html

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;361681]Pierre

I really do appreciate that you are a busy person, but you do only answer questions that you like.

You have not answered questions from myself post 63 which was a series of fairly general questions.

Yes I have, see post 100.

I don´t read David´s posts anymore.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Wickerman,

Do you have a source for what you say about this gate?

There should be an article about boarding up number 26 in the Evening Express where the police is said to be afraid that the killer would come back and use the place. I have not managed to find it. Perhaps someone could try and search for it.

Regards Pierre