Suggestion

[Pierre]

Suggesting a valid interpretation

The press account specifically says:
"...being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows."
Daily Telegraph, Nov 10th 1888

Hi,

I think the we can answer the question as to the boarding up of 26 Dorset Street.

Wickerman has put forward the idea that the room was used for costermongers barrows. He has found some article indicating this.

I have hypothesized that 26 Dorset Street was boarded up after the murder on Kelly.

So our scientific problem is: Which interpretation is right?

I would like to suggest that both are right. So what are the sources for this?

Firstly, thanks to Rosella who writes:

“The rooms in McCarthy's rents were tiny really, 12 feet by 8 feet. You can imagine it being a bit crowded with several large policemen and the doctor inside!

With regard to the front room of No. 26, (the room used as a storeroom) the Evening Express of 12 November noted 'The room was formerly left open and poor people often took shelter there for the night but when the Whitechapel murders caused so much alarm the police thought the place offered too much temptation to the murderer and so the front was securely boarded up'.”

We can see the boards in the picture from The Pictorial News 17 November 1888.

So if there was a gate, this gate was boarded up.

The boarding up of 26 Dorset Street should have been done either to prevent people from looking in through the gate or from breaking in, or to prevent the killer from entering the room – or both.

Another problem with the idea of keeping costermonger barrows in the room is that, as Rosella says, the rooms were tiny. Number 26 was just the double size of number 13.

Wickerman also seems to be aware of the size of those barrows as he writes:

"though if you know how large a costermongers barrow was, you'd appreciate it would not fit through a front door"

So even if there was a gate, the room was small and could not keep many barrows.

And even if there was a gate, it was “securely boarded up” (The Evening Express 12 November 1888) and we have a drawing showing these boards (The Pictorial News 17 November 1888).

Regards Pierre

[Abby Normal]

Yes. Well done. And all this explains why the police had a problem entering Kelly´s room.

And when they did get in, they used the other door. That´s why they were able to take this photograph.

Regards Pierre

Then why isn't the "door"/wall damaged and or shows any evidence that the police entered that way when the photo of mary on her bed showing it behind her was taken from the other angle?

[Abby Normal]

I'm unsure what is being suggested here. The photo appears to be from the other side of the bed so the bed must have been moved away from the wall/partition that it was previously up against.

Any door in that position from this photo would be the main entry to Kelly's room (the one they struggled to open) and, maybe this is the point of Pierre's post, would probably be a bit damaged if they had to bash it in.

However there was, in fact, another door into the room albeit (in theory) sealed off and at one time boarded over. This door must have led to the same entrance as that on the ground floor to the stairs for Prater's room (and more than likely then on to another door into the back of number 26.

I say boarded over at one time because that's the impression I get from Kelly photo 1 - much of the boarding appears to have been pulled away re-exposing the door. In fact, the boarding had probably been used as fire wood over the years (maybe even on the day in question). If it was possible to still open this door, a surprise attack would easily have been possible on Kelly. There's no other suggestion of that though so just my crackpot theory.

because they didn't "bash" the door open, but merely forced the door, prying it open and only breaking the lock?

[Abby Normal]

Corrrect. The killer used this door to get in. He killed Mary Kelly in her sleep, barricaded the other door and performed the mutilations. After the murder he left through the first door. The police couldn't get in since the door facing Miller's Court was barricaded.

Number 26 was also boarded up after the murder.

Regards Pierre

Hi pierre
wouldn't there have been a lot of noise if the killer was trying to get through this way?
wouldn't marys bed have blocked his entrance this way?
wouldn't mary have woken up if someone was trying to get in that way?

[Pierre]

Then why isn't the "door"/wall damaged and or shows any evidence that the police entered that way when the photo of mary on her bed showing it behind her was taken from the other angle?

The door between 26 och 13 was already opened by the killer and therefore could be opened and closed again by the police.

The entrance door was barricaded by the table and bed. The police could not get in through that door and so they used the door between 26 and 13.

You can see that on MJK3. The photographer stands in front of the barricaded entrance door.

Prater said the "partition" was thin.

Look at the fire map and you will see the that the place of the original door matches the place of the door in Kelly´s room.

The killer must have opened it when Kelly wasn´t in her room and then closed it again.

It was an old, thin door. McCarthy did not even make a real partition. He just closed the door, locked it and put some wallpaper on the side of number 26, if he even bothered to do that.

And this is how easy it probably was for the killer to open this door:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDyBLpmiDLQ

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi pierre
1.wouldn't there have been a lot of noise if the killer was trying to get through this way?
2.wouldn't marys bed have blocked his entrance this way?
3.wouldn't mary have woken up if someone was trying to get in that way?

1. The door was already opened by the killer when Mary was out. He just had to open it and kill Mary in her sleep.

2. No. The door opened into number 26. Look at the fire map.

3. Same as 1.

Regards Pierre

[Abby Normal]

Regards Pierre

well since Pierre has posted this twice and no one has responded-I will.
Obviously he wants someone to notice this.

If that's the sillouette of jack the ripper on the wall then he must have been soaked in blood and marys blood must have been spraying him and the wall like a high pressure industrial paint sprayer. lol.

[Abby Normal]

1. The door was already opened by the killer when Mary was out. He just had to open it and kill Mary in her sleep.

2. No. The door opened into number 26. Look at the fire map.

3. Same as 1.

Regards Pierre

ok-got it. thanks!

[Abby Normal]

The door between 26 och 13 was already opened by the killer and therefore could be opened and closed again by the police.

The entrance door was barricaded by the table and bed. The police could not get in through that door and so they used the door between 26 and 13.

You can see that on MJK3. The photographer stands in front of the barricaded entrance door.

Prater said the "partition" was thin.

Look at the fire map and you will see the that the place of the original door matches the place of the door in Kelly´s room.

The killer must have opened it when Kelly wasn´t in her room and then closed it again.

It was an old, thin door. McCarthy did not even make a real partition. He just closed the door, locked it and put some wallpaper on the side of number 26, if he even bothered to do that.

And this is how easy it probably was for the killer to open this door:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDyBLpmiDLQ

Regards Pierre

Hi Pierre
so the killer moved the bed to barricade the door with mary in it still asleep?

[Pierre]

well since Pierre has posted this twice and no one has responded-I will.
Obviously he wants someone to notice this.

If that's the sillouette of jack the ripper on the wall then he must have been soaked in blood and marys blood must have been spraying him and the wall like a high pressure industrial paint sprayer. lol.

Yes, I know. So I think it is unlikely.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre
so the killer moved the bed to barricade the door with mary in it still asleep?

No. He killed her by entering the door between 26 and 13.

Then he moved the table and the bed wih the dead body on it to barricade the entrance door before performing the mutilations.

And this is just my suggestion.

The coroner asked Prater if she had heard any beds or tables beeing pulled around.

Regards Pierre

[Abby Normal]

No. He killed her by entering the door between 26 and 13.

Then he moved the table and the bed wih the dead body on it to barricade the entrance door before performing the mutilations.

And this is just my suggestion.

The coroner asked Prater if she had heard any beds or tables beeing pulled around.

Regards Pierre

ok -thanks

[Elamarna]

Dear Pierre

"The entrance door was barricaded by the table and bed so the police could not get in through that door and used the door between 26 and 13.

You can see that on MJK3."

You have not proved that MJK3 shows that.

The position of the table in relation to the door is dependent on the door being opened or closed something given the limited image you are scientifically unable to resolve I believe.
.
Similarly you have not proved that MJK1 was taken after the bed was moved back. You are not the first to suggest this, but no proof has ever been produced.


You Refer to the drawing of the boarded up 26 often, but please note this is a sketch, it is not photographic evidence. It is obviously meant to portray the area either on the day of the murder or in the few days afterwards. there is certainly no way of confirming it is a 100% accurate representation of the scene at a set time.

I also note that you have suggested, ( not sure how serious you are) MJK1 could show blood splatter around where the killer stood, to use your own words:
"Then we could interprete this area as the shadow of Jack the Ripper:"

Do I interpret this correctly, you are suggesting the killer would have been covered in blood himself?


Your theory that the room was entered by the side door is both interesting and creative. it certainly deserves to be investigated as far as the available evidence allows.

That evidence appears to be:

1. YOUR interpretation of the 2 photographs.

2.The evidence given at the Kelly inquest which you believe is not 100% accurate

3. A sketch from a newspaper

3. Evidence left behind which we are not aware of

You like to often say scientific and scientifically, unfortunate none of the above is scientific. it is opinion. That does not mean that others should not listen and consider carefully what you propose. we should, and then draw our own conclusions based on evidence or lack of it.

I do however object to your use of the word scientific to stress your opinions , Having been employed in the British University sector as a scientist for some 35 years, please believe me that one would not last long using the word as you do without being severely criticised by one colleagues.
Finally i note you have started to say "our" hypotheses rather than "my" and "The"

I have attempted to be as open to your ideas as possible but until you provide evidence it is hard to take many of your propositions seriously, no matter how interesting they are.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello All.
Obviously this doesnt prove anything one way or t'other; still...

In andy Aliffes dissrtation on Kitty Ronan, it describes "Lottie" as now residing in Mary Kellys room a few years later and how the walls were stained black with blood. It doesnt say anything about a partition door, just the walls.

[Elamarna]

an observation on MJK3

with regards the strip of light which Pierre says is light coming in the side of the door and shows the hinges and Which Simon Wood in his dissertation says is something else coming from the ceiling.

Do people notice that although there is very limited space between the bottom edge of the table and the victims knee there is an area which must represent the door under the table. There is no light strip visible in that area
which one would expect to see.

This would lend weight to the suggestion this is not light from the crack in the door frame. it could well be an artefact created during printing.

However without being able to view the plate that the image was recorded onto it is very hard to go one way or the other.