Oh, murder!

[Jon Guy]

I believe Jon that the items that were found in the ashes, or grate as its referred to, were found Friday afternoon, before they left the room. Abberline returned with some men Saturday morning to re-sieve them.

Do you have any reference for a search of the fire on the Friday, Mike ?

We do know Abberline was in a room upstairs in Millers Court interviewing all the residents and Barnett that afternoon.

[curious4]

Comfortable

"You will be comfortable". That indicates to me that Astrachan man may have planned to stay the night. Not something to a customer coming in for a quickie. Perhaps telling Mary that he needed somewhere to wait for an early train. "You will be all right for what I have told you". Sounds as though he was offering her extra money. A quickie (possibly) AND a place to wait. For anything. Mary falls asleep, A man sitting up and waiting. I believe Mary pulled the sheet over her face, instinctively trying to hide, having woken up to the sight of a knife-wielding maniac. She had what could have been a defence wound on her thumb. She cries out "murder" in shock. Astrachan man doesn't seem to have been a stranger to her and therefore someone she trusted. Strange that Hutchinson never mentions the man's voice or accent. Perhaps that was a detail the police deliberately kept to themselves.

Best wishes
C4

[Michael W Richards]

But did they check the ashes before Saturday, Mike?
Doesn`t Abberline state at the inquest on Monday that he noticed there had been a fierce fire and the spout had fallen off the kettle and had since searched the contents of the grate.

"I subsequently took an inventory of the contents of the room. There were traces of a large fire having been kept up in the grate, so much so that it had melted the spout of a kettle off.
We have since gone through the ashes in the fireplace; there were remnants of clothing, a portion of a brim of a hat, and a skirt, and it appeared as if a large quantity of women's clothing had been burnt."

I believe Jon that the items that were found in the ashes, or grate as its referred to, were found Friday afternoon, before they left the room. Abberline returned with some men Saturday morning to re-sieve them.

[Jon Guy]

One would imagine Jon that any biological material would have been spotted the first time they sifted, how minute would something have to be to have been missed first go round? And if its that minute, maybe microscopic, what value would it be even if they could identify what it was? That an organ was burned?

Im thinking that paper products with designs or serial numbers could be of investigator value even if in minute form.

But did they check the ashes before Saturday, Mike?
Doesn`t Abberline state at the inquest on Monday that he noticed there had been a fierce fire and the spout had fallen off the kettle and had since searched the contents of the grate.

"I subsequently took an inventory of the contents of the room. There were traces of a large fire having been kept up in the grate, so much so that it had melted the spout of a kettle off.
We have since gone through the ashes in the fireplace; there were remnants of clothing, a portion of a brim of a hat, and a skirt, and it appeared as if a large quantity of women's clothing had been burnt."

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

It`s more likely that this return to Millers Court to sift through the ashes had something to do with the absent heart, as the sifting of the ashes took place after the post mortem, and that Dr Phillips accompanied Abberline.

One would imagine Jon that any biological material would have been spotted the first time they sifted, how minute would something have to be to have been missed first go round? And if its that minute, maybe microscopic, what value would it be even if they could identify what it was? That an organ was burned?

Im thinking that paper products with designs or serial numbers could be of investigator value even if in minute form.

[Jon Guy]

Interesting that you make this point, they did believe some evidence might be found in the ashes of the fire. Not only did they sift the ashes during the initial room investigation but Abberline and a few of his task force returned Saturday morning to do it again. What could be small enough to miss seeing with a sieve on Friday, but still be large enough to provide some clue. And is it the murder that they believed this clue addressed, or some other crime?

Ive suggested it may be possible that they sought traces of paper money, letters or stamps, something of that ilk. I wonder how that might relate to Marys murder.

Hi Michael

It`s more likely that this return to Millers Court to sift through the ashes had something to do with the absent heart, as the sifting of the ashes took place after the post mortem, and that Dr Phillips accompanied Abberline.

[Michael W Richards]

As for the cry out at around 3:45am, a few things we need to bear in mind;

The phrase was often used as an exclamation in that district, not as a cry for help.

No-one later claimed to be in that courtyard at that time of night. Only 1 courtyard occupant could not later claim that call.

Using both descriptions it seems logical that the voice did in fact originate in the courtyard.

Using the descriptions made by Prater it seems logical to assume that room 13was dark and quiet at that time, necessitating an earlier or later visible fire.

Since Prated stated she could hear when Mary "moved about" below her, likely due to the creaks rather than actual footsteps sounds, it is logical to assume that an attack that included a struggle initially did not commence immediately after the call of "oh-murder". Prater was awake and listening for a follow up to the "oh-murder", there was no other sound. Yet the physical evidence indicates some struggle.

How the killer entered the room is the key to this murder, was he invited in, or did he break in and get to Mary before she could scream bloody murder.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi,

So they did not believe there could have been a fire in the room at that time.

Regards Pierre

Interesting that you make this point, they did believe some evidence might be found in the ashes of the fire. Not only did they sift the ashes during the initial room investigation but Abberline and a few of his task force returned Saturday morning to do it again. What could be small enough to miss seeing with a sieve on Friday, but still be large enough to provide some clue. And is it the murder that they believed this clue addressed, or some other crime?

Ive suggested it may be possible that they sought traces of paper money, letters or stamps, something of that ilk. I wonder how that might relate to Marys murder.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rocky.
Not the night before her murder.. I am suggesting that the cry was... what Prater described as ''Awakening from a nightmare''..and would fit in with another witnesses statement around three years later.
As Maxwell says.
''She said, ''I have had the horrors of drink''..unpleasant dreams perhaps?.
Why is it assumed that the cry of ''Oh Murder''..was Kelly being actually attacked?, especially when that wording, would indicate precisely what Kelly allegedly informed Lottie...before her death.
I have always thought it strange , that the very bed, Kelly had a dream that she was being murdered, was the place she actually was, leading me to suspect that this had been relayed to her Killer, and he/she, made her dream come true[ so to speak].
Regards Richard.

[Ginger]

People always say if your getting attacked scream Fire! because if you cry for help everyone will ignore you.

Not entirely on-topic, for which I apologize, but are you familiar with the old song "I Fell into a Vat of Chocolate"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSmqYSVVpTM

[GUT]

A quart pail?

As I said ,I don't believe it.

[DJA]

Maybe there was coal, or some other fuel in the bucket presumed to hold beer, don't believe it personally but it may explain no reports of who sold the beer.

A quart pail?

[RockySullivan]

I have always had the opinion that the cry heard was Kelly crying out ''Oh Murder'', not because of being actually attacked, but awakening suddenly from a nightmare.
Mrs Prater remarked at the inquest,,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', when asked to describe the cry she heard..
And Lottie around 3 years after, told Kit Watkins a Canadian reporter,that the Kelly woman had told her, that sometime in October she had a nightmare that someone was murdering her.
As the cry ''Oh murder '' was uttered,,the wording could suggest, that she had a recurrence of that dream...
I do not believe Mary was killed until daylight.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard, Do you really think Mary awoke from a nightmare screaming "Murder" on the night before her murder? I don't buy that it wasn't Kelly, it's just too coincidental. People always say if your getting attacked scream Fire! because if you cry for help everyone will ignore you. Kelly's a prime example of this. If Prater had bothered to check out the screams she would have found the Ripper.

[Shaggyrand]

Maybe there was coal, or some other fuel in the bucket presumed to hold beer, don't believe it personally but it may explain no reports of who sold the beer.

It's possible... But growlers were far from uncommon at the time. The average pub would have filled too many in a day for it to bring any comment or special notice of the folks getting theirs filled.

[Robert]

I'm not sure but I believe the tiny candle by which Abberline showed the jurors the room, was the one found in the room on 9th.