Oh, murder!

[GUT]

I think a fire was lit at some stage as one penny candle isn't going to be much help to a killer in his mutilations, early on a chilly and dark November morning.

I've always been intrigued by what he used for fuel. Coal, coke and kindling costs. Barnett had been out of work for some time and if the few sixpences that Mary earned weren't going on the rent I hardly think they'd be going to pay a coal merchant or wood yard. Nor do Mary and Barnett seem to be the sort that in the autumn would be thriftily laying in their winter fuel supplies.

Obviously some clothing was thrown onto the fire but I have read that garments smother a fire and make it smoulder and smoke. Hardly a nice roaring blaze.

As a child in England I remember getting a nice supply of chip pieces and a few bits and pieces of fish for sixpence, so I think Mary (and client?) would have been able to get a few potato pieces and a bit of fish for about 3 pennies.

Maybe there was coal, or some other fuel in the bucket presumed to hold beer, don't believe it personally but it may explain no reports of who sold the beer.

[Rosella]

I think a fire was lit at some stage as one penny candle isn't going to be much help to a killer in his mutilations, early on a chilly and dark November morning.

I've always been intrigued by what he used for fuel. Coal, coke and kindling costs. Barnett had been out of work for some time and if the few sixpences that Mary earned weren't going on the rent I hardly think they'd be going to pay a coal merchant or wood yard. Nor do Mary and Barnett seem to be the sort that in the autumn would be thriftily laying in their winter fuel supplies.

Obviously some clothing was thrown onto the fire but I have read that garments smother a fire and make it smoulder and smoke. Hardly a nice roaring blaze.

As a child in England I remember getting a nice supply of chip pieces and a few bits and pieces of fish for sixpence, so I think Mary (and client?) would have been able to get a few potato pieces and a bit of fish for about 3 pennies.

[richardnunweek]

The fire was lit in the morning, to boil water, but Kelly was killed before the kettle could be taken off, her boots were near the fire, as she had ventured out in the morning drizzle, I maintain she was killed by the middle aged market porter she was seen talking to around 845 am.[ By Maxwell]...she ventured back to her room. her client, followed on a few minutes later, he entered her room. she was stripped down to her chemise, and the rest is history..
Regards Richard.
This is all speculation, but as Pierre says,some alteration of data, has an alternative view.

[Pierre]

The much more interesting trivia about Prater's witness statement is why she was NOT asked by the coroner whether she saw any light coming from Kelly's room after 5 am when she claimed to have gone to the pub for another round. Because such a big fire would have burned for more than an hour.

Cheers
IchabodCrane

Hi,

So they did not believe there could have been a fire in the room at that time.

Regards Pierre

[IchabodCrane]

because he was waiting for Blotchy to leave

Hi,
Was blotchy sticking around in the dark then because we heard from Prater that there was no light?
Cheers
IchabodCrane

[Abby Normal]

Hi Pierre
What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?
Kelly was sleeping after having entertained her last customer for the Night.

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?
Because Kelly was being murdered in the room below and it was her muffled last words that Prater and others heard.

The much more interesting trivia about Prater's witness statement is why she was NOT asked by the coroner whether she saw any light coming from Kelly's room after 5 am when she claimed to have gone to the pub for another round. Because such a big fire would have burned for more than an hour.

Why did the man loitering in front of Miller's court not enter her room before 2.30?

Cheers
IchabodCrane

because he was waiting for Blotchy to leave

[Sam Flynn]

GAROTT. The ecchymosis on her neck is an indication of strangulation with a ligature (red handkerchief?).

Ecchymosis is not a specific indicator of strangulation with a ligature - or of strangulation with anything, for that matter. Ecchymosis, being the leakage of blood into the skin, can be a feature of many types of injury, including punches, pinches, cuts and stab wounds.

[IchabodCrane]

Hi,

What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?

"I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. "

Regards Pierre

Hi Pierre
What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?
Kelly was sleeping after having entertained her last customer for the Night.

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?
Because Kelly was being murdered in the room below and it was her muffled last words that Prater and others heard.

The much more interesting trivia about Prater's witness statement is why she was NOT asked by the coroner whether she saw any light coming from Kelly's room after 5 am when she claimed to have gone to the pub for another round. Because such a big fire would have burned for more than an hour.

Why did the man loitering in front of Miller's court not enter her room before 2.30?

Cheers
IchabodCrane

[Pierre]

PIERRE.

POSSIBILITIES. I want to move away from possibilities and towards probabilities. However i cant deny that they 'pop up'. Ive considered the following alternatives:

1) somebody walked in and found the body, and left without reporting it ("oh murder!")., or

2) this was part of the killers MO. It was a way of alerting attention to the murder or timestamping it, like the Tabram murder. There is some mention that the killer may have had a different sounding voice. So... this could have been said by the killer as he was leaving.

Interesting. And if you were to compare these two scenarios from the point of view of the possibility and the probability respectively, at what conclusions could one reach?

Regards Pierre

[Sam Flynn]

FISH AND CHIPS.... McCarthy's chandler shop, maybe?

Not sure McCarthy sold fish and chips, but there was certainly a shop in nearby Thrawl Street which sold fish and chips until at least 2AM. We know this from the testimony of Mrs Elizabeth Mahoney at the Tabram inquest.

[richardnunweek]

I have always had the opinion that the cry heard was Kelly crying out ''Oh Murder'', not because of being actually attacked, but awakening suddenly from a nightmare.
Mrs Prater remarked at the inquest,,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', when asked to describe the cry she heard..
And Lottie around 3 years after, told Kit Watkins a Canadian reporter,that the Kelly woman had told her, that sometime in October she had a nightmare that someone was murdering her.
As the cry ''Oh murder '' was uttered,,the wording could suggest, that she had a recurrence of that dream...
I do not believe Mary was killed until daylight.
Regards Richard.

[Robert St Devil]

PIERRE.

GAROTT. The ecchymosis on her neck is an indication of strangulation with a ligature (red handkerchief?). That type of briising would not have shown up after her death. The fact that the cut was made across the ecchy-bruising supports another poster's (wickerman?) assertion that the killer cut across the ligature furrow. I believe she was garotted which fits Jack the Rippers MO.

FISH AND CHIPS. I dont know how much this would have cost. I know much wasmade of MAry's desperate situation, mentioned that she wouldnt have gone out if she wasnt starving. Fish and potatoes have a digestion time of one hour. So partially digested f&p means she ate within an bour of her death. McCqrhtys chandler shop, maybe?

POSSIBILITIES. I want to move away from possibilities and towards probabilities. However i cant deny that they 'pop up'. Ive considered the following alternatives: 1) somebody walked in and found the body, and left without reporting it ("oh murder!")., or 2) this was part of the killers MO. It was a way of alerting attention to the murder or timestamping it, like the Tabram murder. There is some mention that the killer may have had a different sounding voice. So... this could have been said by the killer as he was leaving.

[Sam Flynn]

The reason I put less credence on the broken pane as the conduit that lets the voice escape Sam is because of the pilot coat, and the muslin curtains.

True enough, Mike - although, even with the coat there, I doubt that those windows were the most soundproof in the world. Or the door, for that matter, irrespective of whether it were open or shut.

Sarah seemed to indicate that the voice was clear enough, and also close.

Quite so, but Sarah was only a handful of metres away, as the insomniac crow flies, and I doubt that her windows were much more soundproofed than Kelly's.

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed, Mike. Open door/broken window - either way, the sound is leaking out into "Miller's Court", and would seem to come from the direction of the courtyard.

The reason I put less credence on the broken pane as the conduit that lets the voice escape Sam is because of the pilot coat, and the muslin curtains. There were items over that hole, (the hole near the bottom right as you look at it from the alcove), and might well muffle sounds from inside. Sarah seemed to indicate that the voice was clear enough, and also close.

[Sam Flynn]

Which raises my idea that Mary made the cry while at her open door..that would explain both Prater and Lewis's guess on the location.

Indeed, Mike. Open door/broken window - either way, the sound is leaking out into "Miller's Court", and would seem to come from the direction of the courtyard.