Oh, murder!

[Michael W Richards]

Prater's description of the sound coming from the Court makes perfect sense if - as I'm personally certain - Prater's room overlooked Dorset Street; from that vantage point, any sound emanating from Kelly's room would come from the direction of Miller's Court itself. Most of "Miller's Court" was, don't forget, at the back of number 26/27 Dorset Street.

And, for what it may be worth, the little courtyard at the back of 26/27 Dorset Street was overlooked by Kelly's room, with its broken window; any scream leaking through that broken pane might indeed appear to come "from the Court", even if there were nobody physically in the Court to produce it.

Hey Sam,

The sound would also sound like it was from the court if it actually came from the court....Sarah Lewis's statement lends credence to that.

Which raises my idea that Mary made the cry while at her open door..that would explain both Prater and Lewis's guess on the location.

[Sam Flynn]

Just because the cry was heard (faintly) by people in the Court does not mean it originated in the Court.

Prater's description of the sound coming from the Court makes perfect sense if - as I'm personally certain - Prater's room overlooked Dorset Street; from that vantage point, any sound emanating from Kelly's room would come from the direction of Miller's Court itself. Most of "Miller's Court" was, don't forget, at the back of number 26/27 Dorset Street.

And, for what it may be worth, the little courtyard at the back of 26/27 Dorset Street was overlooked by Kelly's room, with its broken window; any scream leaking through that broken pane might indeed appear to come "from the Court", even if there were nobody physically in the Court to produce it.

[RockySullivan]

If the cries did actually came from the court could mary have gone into he court for a reason at 3:30-4 am and been attacked and forced inside there? Unlikely I think the prater could have just claimed the scream came from the court in order to not take blame for hearing her neighbor being murdered, or was too sleepy to tell

[Robert]

There are newspaper examples of people crying "I am being murdered," "I am murdered" and suchlike while being murdered.

[Penhalion]

But aren't we forgetting that cries of 'murder' were common in the area yet murders were not? It might just be that the two happening close together is one of those odd coincidences. The reason people remember that particular instance of the cry is because a murder was actually discovered. Miller's Court was hardly in an isolated situation. If my memory and pictures are accurate there were several taller buildings around the Court with windows looking out and at least one was a doss house with lots of random people in it. Just because the cry was heard (faintly) by people in the Court does not mean it originated in the Court.

[Abby Normal]

Hello, Abby.

Nope, that doesn't add up to me. If someone was suddenly attacking you with a knife, you wouldn't cry out 'Oh, murder!', even in Victorian England. You would scream at the top of your lungs or call for help. It seems to have been used as a general exclamation from that time more than anything. That doesn't mean it wasn't Mary Kelly who said it, but I don't believe it preceded the murder. And there's the small matter of Mary Kelly being alive several hours after this, which I happen to subscribe to.

Hi Harry
Thanks for the response. Not sure what anyone would do, let alone what they would yell out if they suddenly found themselves being attacked in the middle of the night especially if its what awakens them.

Anyway, if we have two witness who hear a cry out of murder at about the same time, in the middle of the night coming from a young woman nearby and then a young woman is found the next morning murdered nearby and the doctors TOD tallys with said cry, I would go with said cry and the attack and murder at that time.

but each his own.

[Harry D]

The cry in all likelihood was the start of the attack.

Hello, Abby.

Nope, that doesn't add up to me. If someone was suddenly attacking you with a knife, you wouldn't cry out 'Oh, murder!', even in Victorian England. You would scream at the top of your lungs or call for help. It seems to have been used as a general exclamation from that time more than anything. That doesn't mean it wasn't Mary Kelly who said it, but I don't believe it preceded the murder. And there's the small matter of Mary Kelly being alive several hours after this, which I happen to subscribe to.

[Abby Normal]

Since Elizabeth heard it "as if from the court" and Sarah Lewis heard it "as if at my door" the cry more than likely came from the courtyard. No-one later claimed making that cry out, and one person in that courtyard could not claim that cry later, so its possible it was Mary. What isn't possible is that the cry started the attack. No sounds were heard by Elizabeth following the cry out, despite the fact she was awake and listening for some.

What I believe fits with the evidence is Mary being woken by a knock on the window or door (waking diddles), and that she answered the door with an exclamation of dismay.....something like "oh-murder...what are you doing here at this hour"?

Hi Mike
The cry in all likelihood was the start of the attack. if no sounds were heard immediately after the cry, its probably because mary had her throat cut and a sheet over her head (and therefore her mouth) and if she was still trying to struggle or call out the killer might have been on top of her possibly with his hand over her mouth waiting for her to die. Once he knew she was dead for sure he then started with the mutilations.

in your scenario, Elizabeth dosnt say she heard any other talking either before or after the cry. so it dosnt seem to have been any other conversation.

also, I think there is a slight possibility that what agitated the cat was the smell of blood. and Elizabeth got confused in her sleepy state in the sequence of events-so she is awaken by the cry, hears nothing else, falls back asleep and is shortly awaken by her cat whos agitated by the smell of blood. the next day she misrembers-thinking the cat woke her first.

However, if not and she was correct in the sequence, then the cat awoke to the sounds(or smell) of the man entering marys apartment. or the cat waking her was for an unrelated reason known only to the cat.

I only bring it up because I have been a cat owner, and I know that cats get extremely agitated by the smell of blood.

[Michael W Richards]

Since Elizabeth heard it "as if from the court" and Sarah Lewis heard it "as if at my door" the cry more than likely came from the courtyard. No-one later claimed making that cry out, and one person in that courtyard could not claim that cry later, so its possible it was Mary. What isn't possible is that the cry started the attack. No sounds were heard by Elizabeth following the cry out, despite the fact she was awake and listening for some.

What I believe fits with the evidence is Mary being woken by a knock on the window or door (waking diddles), and that she answered the door with an exclamation of dismay.....something like "oh-murder...what are you doing here at this hour"?

[Abby Normal]

Hi,

What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?

"I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. "

Regards Pierre

Hi Pierre
all things considered and that at least 2 witnesses heard the cry around 3:45-4:00 I think its likely that is when the attack on mary began. It seems to me she was passed out and awoke to having her throat cut. Probably as the killer was putting the sheet over her face first and cutting her through the sheet, which would explain the cuts that they found in the top of the sheet.

It would also seem to be a possible indication that they were known to each other as the killer didn't want her to see him as he was killing her and or he didn't want to see her face as he was killing her.

[Pierre]

I think it's unlikely that screaming was not Kelly being murdered. If it quacks like a duck...

Hi Rocky,

well, what makes you think it is unlikely - and what could the alternative(s) be?

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

^ As I believe Mary Kelly was in slumberland at around 4am, or even earlier, when she became the victim of a sudden attack, IMO it's doubtful that she would have had much of a chance of calling anything out. '

Hi Rosella,

and if she didn´t - where could "Oh, murder!" have come from?

And how about the time of the murder of Kelly if we consider the following:

"Dr. Bond concluded that: "1 or 2 in the morning would be the probable time of the murder"

The Metropolitan Police detectives investigating the crime did not altogether go along with their expert on this, favouring between 3.30 & 4.00 a.m., the time-span during which two of Kelly's neighbours heard a cry of "murder". But un-remarked, both at the time, and since, was Dr. Phillips' assessment of 5.00 to 6.00 a.m., a difference of three to five hours with Dr. Bond."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...?printer=true)

In the light of the cry of "Oh, murder!" at 3.30/3.45 not coming from Kelly: Which one is more likely to be right, Bond or Phillips?

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Hello Pierre.

The "oh murder!" could be similar to Elizabeth Strides cries for help.

Hi Robert,

Do you think this is the only possible explanation for the "Oh, murder!"?

Regards Pierre

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Pierre.

No light means that Mary could have left the room, lending corroboration with Hutchins. claims. {maybe the man with the pot of ale only buys an hour with her, dunno}. It also could mean the fire in the place hasnt been lit yet.
The partially digested fish and potatoes indicates she ate within 30 mins. to an hour of her death (3a to 330a?). If she is begging off of Hutch, how and where does she get fish & potatos?
The "oh murder!" could be similar to Elizabeth Strides cries for help.

Was Elizabeth Prater waiting for Jack the Ripper at 1:20a?

[RockySullivan]

Bowyer is the one whose presence at miller courts put's him closest to the screams of Murder. According to CB Three witnesses heard the MK screaming murder. I think it's unlikely that screaming was not Kelly being murdered. If it quacks like a duck...

Side note: does anyone know what happened to casebook? The Witnesses and suspect pages are wiped of all info, they only have a link to JTR wiki which is also all blank.