When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[lynn cates]

thinking

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Very well. But I wonder what "MJK" was thinking? Here's a bloke who is paying for a bit of ooh la la, and there he sits, clothed, whilst I sit and sing for an hour?

A bit unresponsive?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

planned

Hello Belinda. Thanks.

Planned well in advance, then?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

inquiries

Hello Packer.

"I'm pretty sure that someone would have remembered selling a pail of beer. . ."

Quite. And that is PRECISELY why the nearest pubs were inquired of. No luck.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I notice we have a speculation that Blotchy may have waited in Kelly's room "for the court to settle down".
Surely, we have to first establish that the court was busy, on a cold, damp, wet and rainy night, before we can suggest that Blotchy would have to wait for it to settle down?

What is there to suggest the court was busy while Blotchy was inside Kelly's room?

[packers stem]

Thanks PS

I think she was the sister of "Fairy Fay". Haha.

Sounds like the usual garbled press nonsense to me.

Hi Abby
We can't totally discount a witness who wasn't called to the inquest surely...she wasn't the first,she may well have been the last though
Many valuable witnesses weren't anywhere near inquests...so if we don't have a police statement we only have a press report.May or may not be true,that's for us all to determine but as many on here don't even believe witnesses who did attend the inquest anyway.... lol
Furthermore ,if you discount Kennedy,believing she's really Sarah Lewis, it makes a complete mockery of the Lewis testimony as an unreliable witness does it not

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

The press statement of Mrs.Kennedy is here

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/illustrated_police_news/il881117.html

The times and sightings are very different from Lewis on the night

Thanks PS

I think she was the sister of "Fairy Fay". Haha.

Sounds like the usual garbled press nonsense to me.

[packers stem]

Hi Ben
Forgive my ignorance but Who's this Kennedy woman and what's her relevance and provenance to Sarah Lewis and her testimony.

I've seen her mentioned before and for the life of me can't get past the idea that she's basically an apocryphal character in all this.Does she even exist?

Was she at the inquest? Does she make a police statement? Who the hell is she!?! LOL

Hi Abby

The press statement of Mrs.Kennedy is here

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/illustrated_police_news/il881117.html

The times and sightings are very different from Lewis on the night

In fact there's lots of interesting reports ...i particularly like McCarthys 'i coudn't begin to describe,it was all too much' then he proceeds to describe Kellys injuries in pretty good detail ....This man had an awful lot to say and it varied day by day

[John G]

I believe Sarah Lewis was sometimes referred to as Sarah Kennedy. According to Sugden (2002) at 8:00pm on the 7th Sarah was walking with a female friend along Bethnal Green Road when they were accosted by a man, who was age around 40 and wearing an overcoat. He also carried a black bag. The man wanted one of the women to follow him, but they both refused. However, after initially going away he returned, promising to treat them if they agreed to accompany him into a narrow passage. Seriously alarmed, they again refused and he asked "what are you frightened of." He then undid his overcoat, reaching for something, at which point the women ran off.

Lewis referred to this incident at the inquest, stating that she saw the man again at about 2:30am on the Friday morning near the Britannia pub as she was going to Miller's Court; he was with a woman but wasn't wearing an overcoat, however, he did have the black bag with him. This is interesting because this is also the time she said she went to the Keylers and saw a man looking up the Court- it has of course been argued that this man was George Hutchinson- so the sighting of the suspicious character must have been just before she entered Miller's Court.

I would just note that, at the inquest, Lewis simply states she was "with a woman", when first encountering black bag man on the 7th.

In fact, the more I ponder on this the more I'm inclined to consider Black Bag man as a serious suspect!

[Simon Wood]

Hi Ben,

Mrs Kennedy was in the company of "her sister".

Sarah Lewis was in the company of "another female".

At 3.00 am, when Mrs Kennedy saw "the deceased" standing outside The Britannia with the man who had accosted her and her sister in Bethnal Green Road on 7th November, MJK had been in Room 13 with Mister Astrakhan for 45 minutes.

Regards,

Simon

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for the info, Pack.

Kennedy certainly mentioned that she encountered the man when in company with her sister, but I'm not aware of any evidence that Sims thought the sister was Sarah Lewis.

Regards,
Ben

Hi Ben
Forgive my ignorance but Who's this Kennedy woman and what's her relevance and provenance to Sarah Lewis and her testimony.

I've seen her mentioned before and for the life of me can't get past the idea that she's basically an apocryphal character in all this.Does she even exist?

Was she at the inquest? Does she make a police statement? Who the hell is she!?! LOL

[Ben]

Hi Ben
The A-Z page 261 in the entry on Kennedy says "G R Sims subsequently referred to the man seen by 'the Kennedy sisters' "

Thanks for the info, Pack.

Kennedy certainly mentioned that she encountered the man when in company with her sister, but I'm not aware of any evidence that Sims thought the sister was Sarah Lewis.

Regards,
Ben

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Yes, you make some very well though out points. However, the sheer ferocity of the attack on Kelly perplexes me. For instance, the assault on Kelly was described by Dr Phillips as "most wanton", and it appeared that the killer had hacked and slashed away in a complete frenzy. This was obviously in contrast to the Chapman and Eddowes murders, where the medical professionals concluded that the perpetrator(s) had exhibited a significant amount of skill and anatomical knowledge. Of course, this has lead some people to conclude that Kelly was not a Ripper victim.

Nonetheless, Kelly's killer still had enough self control to perform the murder in a quick, efficient and arguably relatively humane manner, i..e. by severing the carotid artery which, of course, accords with the MO in the other C5 murders, but not Tabram who was also subjected to a frenzied assault.

Do you therefore think that the more frenzied assault against Kelly might indicate a more personal motive? In other words, suggesting that her killer was not a complete stranger?

Hi JohnG
Perhaps. But I don't really see Kelly as frenzied. Tabram yes.
I think the extensive mutilation with Kelly is that he had more time and safety to do all he wanted. ie. to cut and mutilate a female and see what he could do with his knife.

As Ive mentioned there are numerous other indicators(other than a frenzied attack) that the killer knew Mary.

Remember the mutilations escalated as the series progressed and Eddowes also had her face targeted.

Ive never really bought into the idea that the extensive mutilations on Kelly or her face were necessarily indicators that it was "personal" as many have said here. It might be but might not. to me its kind of irrelevant because then you would have to reason that it was "personal" with Eddowes also(highly unlikely he knew her also) and because like I said there are many other evidence that the killer knew mary anyway.

[John G]

I think the apparent change in MO with Kelly -and Stride for that matter(hanging out, walking around, buying stuff) may have to do with the fact that the killer was getting more comfortable, brazen and sophisticated in his method.

To my mind Kelly and stride were apparently much more attractive than the previous victims, not as desperate, and perhaps more wary?

A change in plan might have been warrented as the series went on and his desires progressed, the situation became more risky and his methods became more refined.

Hello Abby,

Yes, you make some very well though out points. However, the sheer ferocity of the attack on Kelly perplexes me. For instance, the assault on Kelly was described by Dr Phillips as "most wanton", and it appeared that the killer had hacked and slashed away in a complete frenzy. This was obviously in contrast to the Chapman and Eddowes murders, where the medical professionals concluded that the perpetrator(s) had exhibited a significant amount of skill and anatomical knowledge. Of course, this has lead some people to conclude that Kelly was not a Ripper victim.

Nonetheless, Kelly's killer still had enough self control to perform the murder in a quick, efficient and arguably relatively humane manner, i..e. by severing the carotid artery which, of course, accords with the MO in the other C5 murders, but not Tabram who was also subjected to a frenzied assault.

Do you therefore think that the more frenzied assault against Kelly might indicate a more personal motive? In other words, suggesting that her killer was not a complete stranger?

[John G]

All these times, 11:45 pm, 12:30pm, 4am for the cry are very approximate though aren't they? It's not as if these witnesses were wandering around with pocket watches or even had clocks in their rooms for sure, with the exception of Mrs Lewis (and if they did would they be lighting candles in the dark to check the time?) Some of it might almost be guessing.

I have always been intrigued by what the killer did when he got into Mary's room, by invite. Did he strip down to his shirt and lay beside her, or talk to her for several minutes in a reassuring sort of way? I just can't imagine Mary's death being as late as 4am, unless, heaven help us, there was yet another client after Astrakhan Man. Would Blotchy or Astrakhan man have sat waiting patiently in a filthy, dark, cold room, (remember the broken panes) for several hours until 3:30-4am waiting for a drunken woman to fall asleep?

I just think the cries of Murder were coincidental and from somewhere else. Mary probably died earlier, after falling into a drunken snooze with the sheet partly over her face and was then attacked.

Hi Rosella,

Yes, some good points. I agree that the suggestion she was murdered around 4:00 am is quite possibly a red herring. Although two witnesses heard cries of "murder" or "oh murder" around that time, as I pointed out in a previous post their evidence is contradictory: Sarah Lewis heard a scream whereas Elizabeth Prater said the cry was in a faint voice. What may also be of importance is that Prater lived directly above Kelly, whilst Lewis lived on the opposite side of the court, next to McCarthy's shop, although this was directly opposite and probably only few feet away. Nonetheless, the fact that Prater heard only a faint sound suggests to me the cry probably emanated from the opposite side of the court, i.e. near to Sarah Lewis' lodgings, which would rule out Kelly being responsible.

[Abby Normal]

I agree with the people who think the cry of 'Murder!' was coincidental. It is described as common enough in the area that no one paid much attention to it. I suspect it was used as an expression of surprise or frustration and came from one of the rooms that were so close to Miller's Court and so crowded with people.

Personally, I doubt she went back out after Hutch saw her. I believe that he probably did see and even talk with her but the specific details were probably a fabrication. I don't think she was terribly worried about her back rent (if it was even as much as McCarthy claimed it was) and being drunk and tired on a cold, raw night probably stayed in. So how did she encounter JtR? Excellent question. Being very drunk, her sense of danger and normal caution might have been pretty well anesthetized. She might have let a relative stranger in under those conditions when she wouldn't have otherwise.

I agre with you except that I think she didn't go out after Blotchy.
Aman is a fig newton of hutches imagination.