When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[lynn cates]

fit

Hello Belinda. Thanks.

What would the fit be like?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

guess

Hello (yet again) Abby.

"After looking at all the comings and goings of the various witnesses, I think Mary was possibly killed around 1:30.

It would jibe with the meal and alleviate the problem of why Blotchy(as the ripper) would wait 4 hours to kill her. I could see Blotchy waiting an hour or so for the court to calm down and maybe wait for her to get drunker/pass out?"

OK. So Blotchy is waiting for a drunken "MJK" to pass out so he can do his thing. Acceptable. One hour is not so bad.

But could you offer a plausible conjecture about "MJK"? For example, is she looking for sex with a paying customer? Is he an old friend? Does she sing to get him in the mood?

I recognise the complexity of my question and difficulty in answering. However, I merely ask for a consistent guess.

Cheers.
LC

[belinda]

He could easily have torn the lining of his jacket to slip the knife into. Just a thought

[lynn cates]

fit

Hello (again) Abby. Thanks.

"he probably could have just left the knife in his coat pocket, where he probably normally carried it anyway, and taken the coat off, hanging it on the back of said chair."

Very well. But I wonder about length of knife compared to depth of pocket? Would it have fit well?

Wonder if one of our Victorian fashion scholars knows the answer?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Ah!

Hello Abby. Thanks.

"I'm starting to think more and more that they were.

I recently saw a show where the time of death was established based mainly on that two neighbors heard gunshots in the middle of the night.

It turns out she had been killed the previous morning."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Wicker man, thanks for this.
Yeah I thought that the reports of police checking in pubs might have come from the press.

Personally I think that people place far too much emphasis on press reports when looking for evidence to support a practical thesis or suspect.

Its a necessary evil I'm afraid.
We all look for official police documentation first, but as those files are sorely depleted, the press are the only viable alternative.
Not every press account is without value, the information contained within must be weighed against what we know from other sources.
Sadly, as is the case on this issue, no other opinion exists.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman
Various books over the years have skimmed this probably because there are slight variations in the press accounts and most convinced themselves that Kennedy and Lewis were one and the same but I've just read the illustrated police news piece now and I'm inclined to believe the longer version that's in there.Could it be that Sarah Lewis and Mrs Kennedy were sisters?

A week after the murder George Sims, in one of his regular articles refers to Lewis & Kennedy as sisters.

In describing a specific type of suspect, he then writes:
"It was a man of exactly this type, I gather from the slight description (peculiar looking), who spoke to the Kennedys on the night of the last murder."
Nov. 18, 1888.

[GUT]

Hi MR
Works for me. Totally possible.
Only two minor points. I Beleive the murder was described as kind of a yell.
Also, having had a cat I know that when they smell blood they get antsy.
In that case she was killed around 1:30 or 2ish it takes a while for the blood smell to effuse throughout the building, the cat to smell it, continue to get more agitated and then wake up it's owner. Of course the oh murder sound is totally unrelated then.

I know it might sound trivial, but the whole diddles thing made me think of my cat and how it acted at the smell of blood.

Or when they smell/hear a
Mouse
Dog
Bird

or just because they are a cat.

[packers stem]

Also, Lewis said she saw a man & woman outside the Britannia about 2:30, but Kennedy said she saw a man & two women outside the Britannia about 3:00.
Some press accounts identify that second woman as Kelly.

Hi Wickerman
Various books over the years have skimmed this probably because there are slight variations in the press accounts and most convinced themselves that Kennedy and Lewis were one and the same but I've just read the illustrated police news piece now and I'm inclined to believe the longer version that's in there.Could it be that Sarah Lewis and Mrs Kennedy were sisters?
The big question has to be though...Kennedy was staying in the court.They weren't allowed to leave until they were interviewed.This was by far and away the most likely sighting of the killer if true.Do we have a case of a sighting that's 'too good' to be at the inquest? .... Just like schwartz... I'm inclined to believe it now I think and the 'second' dishevelled looking woman makes a whole lot of sense to me. Also note another case of 'respectably dressed man' cropping up yet again,same with Maurice Lewis. It was locals way of saying 'looked out of place'

[Abby Normal]

Continuing of michaels post.
I too have believed that Mary knew her killer:

If it was blotchy, she certainly acted like she knew him.
If it was hutch, he claimed to have known her, and at least knew her well enough to know where she lived.
If it was Barnett, he was her recent ex.
If it was Fleming , he was a past ex.
If it was bowyer, he also knew her.

If it was none of these, other indicators that she knew her unamed killer:
Killed in her room.
Killed in bed, probably undressed herself.
Just recently broken up-did the killer know she would be alone?
Broken window trick to open door-did her killer know?
Cut sheet indicating killer put over her face-typical behavior of a killer who knows the victim.
Killer took her heart.

[Abby Normal]

The part I emboldened is what I believe the evidence at face value reveals, and since Mary had no money that we know of other than the "coin" Maria gave her that night, it would also seem to indicate that someone purchased the alcohol that Mary drank to apparent excess.

One might wonder whether that was Blotchys task that night, to get Mary so inebriated and worn out from singing that she would be ready to retire shortly thereafter..... or whether we have evidence that she had at least one male friend that was just that. The fact that a man matching Blotchy is seen later that week and fled when he discovered he was being watched might indicate a friend unwilling to come forward to openly admit he was the man seen with Mary entering her room.....or, someone who had something to hide.

I personally believe that the Kelly murder is the only one within the Canonical that almost screams "killed by someone known to the victim." The location, the disposition of Mary when attacked....in bed, undressed,....the fact that she was in a love triangle she admitted to, and the fact that her face, her identity, was obliterated....a factor that in most murders is considered proof of a relationship of some kind between killer and prey. Oh yeah.....and he took her heart. Not a bladder. Not a uterus. Not a kidney....all which are conceivably edible by someone so inclined. All those were left "placed" around her corpse.

Heres the most probable scenario I can see based on what is known and accepted......Mary went out and met up with Blotchy at a pub. He spotted her some drinks, and relatively early, offered to escort her home. As a gesture of thanks she treated him like a guest, and entertained him with some singing....as a kind of thanks for his kindness. He leaves when the lights g out and the singing stopped...before 1:30am, and at approx. 3:45 someone new knocks lightly on her door...waking Diddles. She opens the door hungover and sleepy, and when she sees who is standing there, with the door still open, she exclaims "oh-murder" in the same way anyone of that period would voice discontent rather than signal an actual murder attempt. Elizabeth hears it "as if from the court", and Sarah hears it "as if at the door"...which sustains the aforementioned speculation about the open door.

Nothing more is heard by either woman as they listened for more sounds, even the woman who lived right upstairs. So....whomever she let enter didn't attack her right away, nor did she voice any further alarm that someone showed up at almost 4am. Again, both indicative of Mary letting someone in she knew. He kills her after she rolled over and faced the partition wall and fell back to sleep...he likely just sat and watched her and waited...maybe got into the bed behind her.

Im sure people will suggest this is just a hypothetical scenario without proof that it occurred in that manner...but ask yourself this, in what way does the above negate any known facts of that evening?

Cheers

Hi MR
Works for me. Totally possible.
Only two minor points. I Beleive the murder was described as kind of a yell.
Also, having had a cat I know that when they smell blood they get antsy.
In that case she was killed around 1:30 or 2ish it takes a while for the blood smell to effuse throughout the building, the cat to smell it, continue to get more agitated and then wake up it's owner. Of course the oh murder sound is totally unrelated then.

I know it might sound trivial, but the whole diddles thing made me think of my cat and how it acted at the smell of blood.

[Michael W Richards]

Wicker man, thanks for this.
Yeah I thought that the reports of police checking in pubs might have come from the press.

Personally I think that people place far too much emphasis on press reports when looking for evidence to support a practical thesis or suspect.

I would trust the press of 1888 as much as I would trust the press of 2015.

If all we have to support the premise that Police made a thorough investigation of local pubs and their patrons in an effort to ascertain if Mary was in the pub on the Thursday night are newspaper reports, it surely entitles us to ask just how thorough their investigation was.

In other words, if there is no contemporaneous evidence that Police investigated thoroughly, their is a very real possibility that Mary was in a local pub that night.
Possibly with Blotchy.

The part I emboldened is what I believe the evidence at face value reveals, and since Mary had no money that we know of other than the "coin" Maria gave her that night, it would also seem to indicate that someone purchased the alcohol that Mary drank to apparent excess.

One might wonder whether that was Blotchys task that night, to get Mary so inebriated and worn out from singing that she would be ready to retire shortly thereafter..... or whether we have evidence that she had at least one male friend that was just that. The fact that a man matching Blotchy is seen later that week and fled when he discovered he was being watched might indicate a friend unwilling to come forward to openly admit he was the man seen with Mary entering her room.....or, someone who had something to hide.

I personally believe that the Kelly murder is the only one within the Canonical that almost screams "killed by someone known to the victim." The location, the disposition of Mary when attacked....in bed, undressed,....the fact that she was in a love triangle she admitted to, and the fact that her face, her identity, was obliterated....a factor that in most murders is considered proof of a relationship of some kind between killer and prey. Oh yeah.....and he took her heart. Not a bladder. Not a uterus. Not a kidney....all which are conceivably edible by someone so inclined. All those were left "placed" around her corpse.

Heres the most probable scenario I can see based on what is known and accepted......Mary went out and met up with Blotchy at a pub. He spotted her some drinks, and relatively early, offered to escort her home. As a gesture of thanks she treated him like a guest, and entertained him with some singing....as a kind of thanks for his kindness. He leaves when the lights g out and the singing stopped...before 1:30am, and at approx. 3:45 someone new knocks lightly on her door...waking Diddles. She opens the door hungover and sleepy, and when she sees who is standing there, with the door still open, she exclaims "oh-murder" in the same way anyone of that period would voice discontent rather than signal an actual murder attempt. Elizabeth hears it "as if from the court", and Sarah hears it "as if at the door"...which sustains the aforementioned speculation about the open door.

Nothing more is heard by either woman as they listened for more sounds, even the woman who lived right upstairs. So....whomever she let enter didn't attack her right away, nor did she voice any further alarm that someone showed up at almost 4am. Again, both indicative of Mary letting someone in she knew. He kills her after she rolled over and faced the partition wall and fell back to sleep...he likely just sat and watched her and waited...maybe got into the bed behind her.

Im sure people will suggest this is just a hypothetical scenario without proof that it occurred in that manner...but ask yourself this, in what way does the above negate any known facts of that evening?

Cheers

[barnflatwyngarde]

This was an account in the press, though the account does not specify who did the checking, the press or police. We have assumed it was the police who canvased the pubs & beer shops, due to the fact it would be required for them to do so.

Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov.
"Inquiry has equally failed to obtain evidence of Kelly or any person similar to the man described having bought beer at any of the neighbouring public-houses."

Wicker man, thanks for this.
Yeah I thought that the reports of police checking in pubs might have come from the press.

Personally I think that people place far too much emphasis on press reports when looking for evidence to support a practical thesis or suspect.

I would trust the press of 1888 as much as I would trust the press of 2015.

If all we have to support the premise that Police made a thorough investigation of local pubs and their patrons in an effort to ascertain if Mary was in the pub on the Thursday night are newspaper reports, it surely entitles us to ask just how thorough their investigation was.

In other words, if there is no contemporaneous evidence that Police investigated thoroughly, their is a very real possibility that Mary was in a local pub that night.
Possibly with Blotchy.

[Wickerman]

...
If we suspect they are one and the same ,we have to ask ourselves why her story changed from 3-3.30, woman with no hat talking to 2 men(or possibly one man and a masculine woman),one of whom was "standing in the shadows" ....to a man standing in a doorway in a wideawake hat and she 'knew' it was 2.30 by the church clock.

Also, Lewis said she saw a man & woman outside the Britannia about 2:30, but Kennedy said she saw a man & two women outside the Britannia about 3:00.
Some press accounts identify that second woman as Kelly.

[Wickerman]

Hi Barney(the rest of the name being a bit of a mouthful )
Never seen it either ...The whole investigation did appear to tail off a bit after Millers Court ....maybe my imagination

This was an account in the press, though the account does not specify who did the checking, the press or police. We have assumed it was the police who canvased the pubs & beer shops, due to the fact it would be required for them to do so.

Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov.
"Inquiry has equally failed to obtain evidence of Kelly or any person similar to the man described having bought beer at any of the neighbouring public-houses."