When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[packers stem]

Folks,
It is assumed that the Police trawled all the local pubs after Mary's murder, presumably to see if anyone had seen her, either alone or in company (possibly focussing on the description of Blotchy).
I am however unable to trace any confirmation of this.

I have checked in "The Ultimate JTR Sourcebook", and Paul Begg's "JTR: The Facts" and couldn't find any reference to Police checking the local pubs.
Could someone give me some references that detail exactly how extensive this trawl was, or even what questions they were asking.

Hi Barney(the rest of the name being a bit of a mouthful )
Never seen it either ...The whole investigation did appear to tail off a bit after Millers Court ....maybe my imagination

[packers stem]

Hi Abby

I believe hutch stood and watched because its corroborated by Sarah lewis. Like I said he was probably trying to meet up with Mary for a place to crash and or sleep with her.
His aman story is BS he came up later to cash in somehow.

Sarah Lewis is a monumental problem for us in that she said the same as Mrs Kennedy in terms of being accosted but a completely different version of events in Dorset Street.
If we suspect they are one and the same ,we have to ask ourselves why her story changed from 3-3.30, woman with no hat talking to 2 men(or possibly one man and a masculine woman),one of whom was "standing in the shadows" ....to a man standing in a doorway in a wideawake hat and she 'knew' it was 2.30 by the church clock.
If they are the 'friends' and they were together when accosted in Bethnal green then fine ,we've got two good witness accounts to go by.
There's no doubt in my mind that 'someone' was watching the court OR that 'someone' was watching the attack on Stride....i just don't believe it has anything to do with Hutchinson

[packers stem]

One small point on food digestion is that although it depends on the individual 3 hours for potato alone would be extreme...
Phillips in the Chapman case said there was very little food left in the stomach...not no food.Chapman we know was eating a baked potato at 1.30 so what does that tell us of the TOD there?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby


Only question mark i would put against this is that at 1am in my experience,people tend to carry on drinking if they have drink(which Blotchy had),then worry about the food a bit later when the alcohol supply has dried up.She must have known Blotchy to be sitting there singing with him.Suspect she probably went back out for food after the beer had gone...and probably blotchy.He clearly wasn't a client,just a friend.



If you don't believe Hutchinson's story,and i'm not one to disagree with you there,why do you believe he stood and watched?
'Oh Murder' has always sounded like a discovery to me,not an attack.Can't for the life of me imagine anyone coming out with that faced with a knife coming at them

Hi PS
I think in that scenario she had drinks with Blotchy at the pub abd grabbed some food with him around that time, then headed home with him. I don't think she had any inclination or ability to go out after Blotchy, even if he wasn't her killer. All things seem to indicate she was settled in for the evening after she came in with Blotchy.

I believe hutch stood and watched because its corroborated by Sarah lewis. Like I said he was probably trying to meet up with Mary for a place to crash and or sleep with her.
His aman story is BS he came up later to cash in somehow.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Folks,
It is assumed that the Police trawled all the local pubs after Mary's murder, presumably to see if anyone had seen her, either alone or in company (possibly focussing on the description of Blotchy).
I am however unable to trace any confirmation of this.

I have checked in "The Ultimate JTR Sourcebook", and Paul Begg's "JTR: The Facts" and couldn't find any reference to Police checking the local pubs.
Could someone give me some references that detail exactly how extensive this trawl was, or even what questions they were asking.

[packers stem]

Hi Abby

After looking at all the comings and goings of the various witnesses, I think Mary was possibly killed around 1:30

Only question mark i would put against this is that at 1am in my experience,people tend to carry on drinking if they have drink(which Blotchy had),then worry about the food a bit later when the alcohol supply has dried up.She must have known Blotchy to be sitting there singing with him.Suspect she probably went back out for food after the beer had gone...and probably blotchy.He clearly wasn't a client,just a friend.

Of course this would discount Hutch as a liar, but i dont think thats a very controversial point. But it begs the question what was he doing then wtaching and waiting, if she is already dead. In this scenario, it seems that hutch thought she was either with a client and waiting for him to leave or probably thought she was still out and waiting for her to return. He was probably just looking for a place to crash, or if he got lucky to sleep with her.

If you don't believe Hutchinson's story,and i'm not one to disagree with you there,why do you believe he stood and watched?
'Oh Murder' has always sounded like a discovery to me,not an attack.Can't for the life of me imagine anyone coming out with that faced with a knife coming at them

[Abby Normal]

After looking at all the comings and goings of the various witnesses, I think Mary was possibly killed around 1:30.

it would jibe with the meal and alleviate the problem of why Blotchy(as the ripper) would wait 4 hours to kill her. I could see Blotchy waiting an hour or so for the court to calm down and maybe wait for her to get drunker/pass out?

Of course this would discount Hutch as a liar, but i dont think thats a very controversial point. But it begs the question what was he doing then wtaching and waiting, if she is already dead. In this scenario, it seems that hutch thought she was either with a client and waiting for him to leave or probably thought she was still out and waiting for her to return. He was probably just looking for a place to crash, or if he got lucky to sleep with her.

[Abby Normal]

Hello John.

"Moreover, if the murder was planned would the killer have waited for several hours before striking?"

Excellent observation. Also, are we to imagine him sitting in a chair, fully dressed so as to conceal his knife whilst she undressed and went to bed?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
Its an interesting observation/idea, but its never really bothered me. he probably could have just left the knife in his coat pocket, where he probably normally carried it anyway, and taken the coat off, hanging it on the back of said chair.

Its not like mary was in a very perceptive state anyway.

[Abby Normal]

Hello C4,

According to Dr Bond there was a "small superficial incision" to the right thumb. Of course, this might be indicative of a token attempt at defence, however, presumably such a superficial cut may have nothing to do with attack. The sheet, at the right-hand corner of the bed, was bloody and badly cut. This suggested to Dr Bond that Kelly's face may have been covered by the sheet at the time she was attacked.

This.
Another possible indication they knew each other.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. I prefer your former. IF Blotchy killed "MJK," then the 4.00 cries were merely collateral noise.

Cheers.
LC

Yes
Im starting to think more and more that they were.

I recently saw a show where the time of death was established based mainly on that two neighbors heard gunshots in the middle of the night.

It turns out she had been killed the previous morning.

The TOD was so firmly established based on what the neighbors heard that suspects were being cleared based on there alibi in the middle of the night.

I think there is a good possibility that mary was dead long before 4:00 am.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think you made an excellent point earlier regarding the possibility that Blotchy and Kelly could have initially met in the pub. Although there are obviously no witnesses, the fact is we don't tend to remember casual observations: I was in a pub myself this lunch time but I couldn't describe anyone else who was there- even in the remotest detail- apart from the people I was with of course, although it was quite busy.

Regarding the possible delay in murdering Kelly. Firstly, although serial killers mainly kill strangers there is evidence that they also frequently kill people known to them: according to Hickey (1997) almost one third of a male serialist's victims are known to him. However, if Kelly was murdered by Blotchy, and assuming she wasn't a stranger and that he was also the Ripper, her murder would clearly be quite risky, I.e because of the personal connection. Therefore maybe her murder wasn't planned, but she just happened to say or do something that enraged him, causing him to lose control. In fact, if he was the Ripper I think it's fair to assume that he would have been so potentially dangerous, and unpredictable, that it could have been something quite minor, such as simply asking him to leave.

Hi Again JohnG
on further thought though-I Think it might be a distinct possibility. Serial killers don't only have kill relationships with women. A lot are married and have girlfriends-so maybe he wasn't initially looking to her as a victim but a partner.
It might explain, as you say, the apparent change in MO and length of time before he killed her.

I shall think about it some more!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think you made an excellent point earlier regarding the possibility that Blotchy and Kelly could have initially met in the pub. Although there are obviously no witnesses, the fact is we don't tend to remember casual observations: I was in a pub myself this lunch time but I couldn't describe anyone else who was there- even in the remotest detail- apart from the people I was with of course, although it was quite busy.

Regarding the possible delay in murdering Kelly. Firstly, although serial killers mainly kill strangers there is evidence that they also frequently kill people known to them: according to Hickey (1997) almost one third of a male serialist's victims are known to him. However, if Kelly was murdered by Blotchy, and assuming she wasn't a stranger and that he was also the Ripper, her murder would clearly be quite risky, I.e because of the personal connection. Therefore maybe her murder wasn't planned, but she just happened to say or do something that enraged him, causing him to lose control. In fact, if he was the Ripper I think it's fair to assume that he would have been so potentially dangerous, and unpredictable, that it could have been something quite minor, such as simply asking him to leave.

Hi JohnG
good points.

However- I think once the ripper got in full swing, he was pretty much planning on killing any woman he got alone. I don't think the anger trigger comes into effect once they get going. if there was any kind of anger trigger involved I think it was with Tabram as the first kill-the evidence seems to point to it with the angry like viscious stabbings. Experts in serial homicide have often cited that a lot of the killers first kill is not necessarily planned but can be "accidental" and triggered by anger.

Another possibility is that Blotchy had seen Mary out, and her youth and good looks attracted him as a potential victim, and he was stalking her so to speak, or at least looking for any opportunity to meet her and kill her.

[curious4]

Est nada

hAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME

Hello GUT

Haha glad it's not just me! :-)

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Hello C4,

Possibly. However, presumably she may have accidentally cut herself earlier in the evening-remember, the cut was very superficial. I wonder, is it possible that the killer placed the sheet over her head, I.e to prevent being covered with arterial spray as he cut her throat?

Hello John

We can but hope that Mary had cut herself earlier. Not convinced myself though. I remember reading in one of the press reports some years ago about a vicar/doctor who threatened his family with a gun. When he reached the maid's room she pulled the sheet over her head. Not much help when faced with a gun, but I can't help thinking that Mary may have done the same thing.

Best wishes
C4

[packers stem]

Hi All
We were discussing the food on this thread last week

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9060&page=16

Concerning the likelihood of a fish supper being consumed.There were street vendors selling all kinds at different times of day including fried fish and potato shavings .A lot of these vendors set up late in the evening to cater for people leaving the pubs but by 4 they had been replaced by the breakfast sellers ,pretty much coffee and a piece of bread .
Best guess for the meal would be before 2 i suspect but i think after 4 would be out of the question