When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[Rosella]

Hi Rosella
The next day after Marys body was found they discovered that there had been a large fire in her fire place (hot ehough to melt the spout of a hanging kettle) in which there were remains of burnt clothes among the ashes.

My take is that they probably started the fire once they arrived at her place on a cold rainy night and that Blotchy, after killing mary, threw some of the clothes that Marys friend had left there.
perhaps out of spite, or to keep the fire going so he could se what he was doing.

Hi, Abby,
Yes, I know about the clothing being burned, but that was later. What did they start the fire with in order to have a cosy drink etc after coming back from the pub? Some of the furniture? Blotchy would hardly have got inside and started throwing Mary (and Maria's) clothing on the fire while she was conscious. Nor would she be singing while she was being killed.

So Blotchy either didn't bother with a fire but just jumped into bed with Mary for a roll in the hay, which he may or may not have paid for and they may have had a drink from his pail afterwards, and more singing (the 19th century equivalent of a post-coital cigarette.)

He then left and she went out again and met Astrakhan Man, or, after a snooze, Blotchy killed her. That would make it between 1am, and 3am, when Mrs Cox finally retired for the night.

Incidentally, I once went on in a post about the clothing being burned and was asked by another poster if I'd ever tried it. He stated that the best way to put a fire out so it just smoulders and smokes is to throw clothing on it.

[packers stem]

What would Kelly do with a pint of milk, Mrs Maxwell had a kitchen at her disposal and Hubby coming home for his breakfast.
Mary Kelly doesn't strike me as a milk drinker somehow.

Drink it possibly. Some people might like to try it to settle their stomach.

[lynn cates]

stories

Hello John. Thanks.

"Do you think that most of the witness testimony is a bit suspect? For example, no one remembers selling Blotchy the quart of ale that Cox says he was carrying, despite his distinctive complexion."

As a matter of fact, I believe NEITHER story. I consider both trumped up.

But what intrigues me is that BOTH descriptions look exactly as though they were taken from official HO/FO documents.

I suggest these stories were planted.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

blotchy

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"I do have difficulty with anything involving anarchists, Irishmen and the like."

I believe both stories false. As I replied to John Graves, the descriptions of both A-man and Blotchy look as though they were taken from official HO/FO documents.

"Do we know just in what way Mr Blotchy was blotchy? Severe acne, alcoholic or syphilitic?"

Surely the second. Please see attached image.

(No, I am not suggesting this child drank. But the blotchy face represents Blotchy's condition.)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Although I believe Caroline Maxwell was confused about seeing Kelly, probably mistaking her for someone else, here's an interesting quote from Walter Dew: " If Mrs Maxwell was a sensation-seeker-one of those women who live for the limelight-it would be easy to discredit her story. She was not. She seemed a sane and sensible woman, and her reputation was excellent." He continued, " In one way at least her version fitted into the facts as known. We knew that Marie had been drinking the previous night, and, as this was not a habit of hers, illness the next morning was just what might have been expected.

However, Maurice Lewis, I believe, can easily be discounted as a witness. Not only does a 10:00am sighting seem far too late, but he claimed she was drinking with several other people in the Ringers (Brittania). Therefore, as none of these other people came forward, if Lewis is correct we are dealing with a major conspiracy.

[lynn cates]

not soliciting

Hello Abby. Thanks.

So, not soliciting then?

I can live with that.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

"Do you think that most of the witness testimony is a bit suspect? For example, no one remembers selling Blotchy the quart of ale that Cox says he was carrying, despite his distinctive complexion."

As a matter of fact, I believe NEITHER story. I consider both trumped up.

But what intrigues me is that BOTH descriptions look exactly as though they were taken from official HO/FO documents.

I suggest these stories were planted.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Are you suggesting a major government conspiracy? If so, what do you believe the motive would have been and who do you think was involved?

[lynn cates]

trace

Hello Harry.

"The woman was found in Mary Kelly's room, identified by Mary Kelly's on/off lover, and Mary Kelly was never seen alive again after the murder. Ergo, it was Mary Kelly in the bed."

But who was Mary Kelly? We have no trace of her before the murder.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

conspiracy

Hello John. Thanks.

I hate the word conspiracy.

However:

1. There can be little doubt that some elements of the police and some associated with HM Government BELIEVED in some sort of Irish to do.

2. Some were also well aware about the dynamite plot from the year before and Frank Millen's role.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"I do have difficulty with anything involving anarchists, Irishmen and the like."

I believe both stories false. As I replied to John Graves, the descriptions of both A-man and Blotchy look as though they were taken from official HO/FO documents.

"Do we know just in what way Mr Blotchy was blotchy? Severe acne, alcoholic or syphilitic?"

Surely the second. Please see attached image.

(No, I am not suggesting this child drank. But the blotchy face represents Blotchy's condition.)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn


No, that's not blotchy, that's flushed (she bears quite a strong resemblance to my granddaughter, by the way :-)).

I'd go for syphilitic m'self. Or suffering from boils perhaps.

Best regards

Gwyneth

[curious4]

Hello Packers

There is always the possibilty that Mary cooked her supper herself, baking her potato in the embers and grilling the fish on the toasting fork, having begged/purloined the ingredients from the market.

Perhaps you are unaware that one theory regarding Mrs M is that she saw the killer dressed in Mary's clothes. I have read somewhere here of a mention by Mrs M that Mary seemed to have a cold (wrapped up in the shawl) and that "her eyes looked strange". Possibly Mrs M filled in the gaps in the conversation and "Mary" didn't actually say much at all, merely groaning a little and pointing to the vomit. The killer (or helper) may well have vomited afterwards.

Best wishes
C4

[packers stem]

Hello Packers

There is always the possibilty that Mary cooked her supper herself, baking her potato in the embers and grilling the fish on the toasting fork, having begged/purloined the ingredients from the market.

Perhaps you are unaware that one theory regarding Mrs M is that she saw the killer dressed in Mary's clothes. I have read somewhere here of a mention by Mrs M that Mary seemed to have a cold (wrapped up in the shawl) and that "her eyes looked strange". Possibly Mrs M filled in the gaps in the conversation and "Mary" didn't actually say much at all, merely groaning a little and pointing to the vomit. The killer (or helper) may well have vomited afterwards.

Best wishes
C4

Morning C4
You're suggesting the killer was a woman then? I've never gone with that.
As for the meal, it is of course possible that she cooked it herself, boiled some potatoes in the kettle,who knows,still think a street vendor is more likely tho and I really don't think she ate it at 6 or 7 in the morning. Just my thoughts on what's likely,probable and realistic I suppose..

[packers stem]

Hello John. Thanks.

I hate the word conspiracy.

However:

1. There can be little doubt that some elements of the police and some associated with HM Government BELIEVED in some sort of Irish to do.

2. Some were also well aware about the dynamite plot from the year before and Frank Millen's role.

Cheers.
LC

Morning Lynn
Certainly fits...
Frank Millen...... FM

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
There are two descriptions of the ''eyes looked queer''
One is a description which I read around 1973.which stated..''Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold''
The other is from McCormacks book.''All muffled up, as in cold''...
The former quote, I have no idea where I saw it,,but saw it I did....
I wrote to Colin Wilson shortly after that quote, referring to Hutchinson's statement,in which Mary Kelly said ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief'' this was approx 2.15am, and I suggested that this could be reference to MJK,maybe having a cold...
With that in mind, and the medical reports of T.O.D. I suggested to Colin, that the two independent witnesses.ie,Hutchinson, and Mrs Maxwell, had made reference to possibly a cold,
Hutchinson hearing Kelly, ask for the assistance from a handkerchief,and Maxwell making reference to her looking like she had a cold.
I then suggested, that as both sightings were some 6 hours apart, and the T,O.D was in the middle..both statements ring true, giving the impression that she was alive in daylight hours.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Hi,
There are two descriptions of the ''eyes looked queer''
One is a description which I read around 1973.which stated..''Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold''
The other is from McCormacks book.''All muffled up, as in cold''...
The former quote, I have no idea where I saw it,,but saw it I did....
I wrote to Colin Wilson shortly after that quote, referring to Hutchinson's statement,in which Mary Kelly said ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief'' this was approx 2.15am, and I suggested that this could be reference to MJK,maybe having a cold...
With that in mind, and the medical reports of T.O.D. I suggested to Colin, that the two independent witnesses.ie,Hutchinson, and Mrs Maxwell, had made reference to possibly a cold,
Hutchinson hearing Kelly, ask for the assistance from a handkerchief,and Maxwell making reference to her looking like she had a cold.
I then suggested, that as both sightings were some 6 hours apart, and the T,O.D was in the middle..both statements ring true, giving the impression that she was alive in daylight hours.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard
If you believe both statements and the TOD what's the obvious conclusion? Personally, I don't go with Hutch but if I did the hanky stuff would be more to do with a previously arranged confirmation... Bit like a blind date...I'll be wearing a blue flower sort of thing... Rather than a cold and the real need for a hanky..I mean who asks someone for their hanky?