When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[Abby Normal]

Does anyone know and how would this play into the timeline of events and TOD?

[John G]

Does anyone know and how would this play into the timeline of events and TOD?

Hi Abby,

I think that's the $64000 question! Thus, according to Begg and Bennett (2012) the remains of her last meal, fish and potatoes, were in her stomach and intestines. Moreover, " Digestion ceases immediately on death and it typically takes two to four hours for food to pass out of the stomach into the intestines" (ibid, 186). Therefore, she was presumably killed around 2-4 hours after she'd last eaten. However, whenever that was is anybody's guess!

[John G]

I've just been doing a little more research into this subject. It appears that the modern scientific view is that there is considerable variability amongst healthy people in transit times between different sections of the gastrointestinal tract. Thus, a very rough estimate is that it will take about 4-5 hours for the stomach to become totally emptied, and on that basis we can estimate that Kelly was possibly killed less than 5 hours after her last meal (although that's obviously not particularly helpful!). See: http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...s/transit.html

[barnflatwyngarde]

Does anyone know and how would this play into the timeline of events and TOD?

Very god question Abby.

Dr Bond's report said that "in the abdominal cavity was some partly digested food of fish and potatoes and some similar food was found in the remains of the stomach attached to the intestines."

To the best of my knowledge no medical person ever estimated when the food found in her stomach was eaten.
This is unfortunate, as any estimate as to when Mary ate her final meal would give us an invaluable piece of information to add to, what is a very sketchy timeline.

According to Mrs Cox, she saw Kelly in the company of a man at approx’ 11.45pm on Thursday 8th November.

To my mind I think we need to consider when and where Mary ate her last meal in relation to when and where she consumed the alcohol that led to her intoxication.

According to Mrs Cox, at 11.45pm Kelly was “Very drunk and could scarcely answer me, but said good-night to me”.

I can think of 4 possible scenarios as to where Mary consumed her drink that night and possibly ate her final meal:

1. She consumed the drink and meal in Millers Court.
2. She consumed the drink and meal in a pub.
3. She consumed the drink and meal in an unknown indoor location.
4. She consumed the drink and meal in an unknown outdoor location.

There is of course the possibility that the meal and drink were consumed at different times in different locations.

Does anyone know whether food was served in East End pubs in those days?
Were there food stalls in the local area that served fish and potatoes?

Is there a likelihood that Mary was wined and dined in a local hostelry by her killer, and then having purchased a "quart pail of beer" decided to go back to her place?

Mary would feel safe in her companion's company.
He had, after all, wined her and dined her, and presumably proved himself to be an agreeable companion.
The most natural thing in the world would be go back to her place with a carry out.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Barn and JohnG
Thanks for the replies.
For some reason I thought that if the TOD was around the heard screams of Murder at 4:00 then that would eliminate the possibility that she ate with Blotchy.
Howver, your replies make it seem that she could have had her last meal with Blotchy shortly before being seen with him at 11:45 and still have been killed around 4:00am.

It seems to jibe well with all the other timings and with the fact that she seemed extremely comfortable with Blotchy. Dinner and ale to go. with a song and warm fire thrown in.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Barn and JohnG
Thanks for the replies.
For some reason I thought that if the TOD was around the heard screams of Murder at 4:00 then that would eliminate the possibility that she ate with Blotchy.
Howver, your replies make it seem that she could have had her last meal with Blotchy shortly before being seen with him at 11:45 and still have been killed around 4:00am.

It seems to jibe well with all the other timings and with the fact that she seemed extremely comfortable with Blotchy. Dinner and ale to go. with a song and warm fire thrown in.

Yeah Abby,
That's pretty much how I read it.

The one thing that puzzles me is that presumably the police checked all local pubs to see if any pub staff or locals saw Mary and/or Blotchy, and got no meaningful information.

Does this lean towards us ruling out the pub theory and postulating that Mary ate and drank elsewhere?

[John G]

Hi Barn and JohnG
Thanks for the replies.
For some reason I thought that if the TOD was around the heard screams of Murder at 4:00 then that would eliminate the possibility that she ate with Blotchy.
Howver, your replies make it seem that she could have had her last meal with Blotchy shortly before being seen with him at 11:45 and still have been killed around 4:00am.

It seems to jibe well with all the other timings and with the fact that she seemed extremely comfortable with Blotchy. Dinner and ale to go. with a song and warm fire thrown in.

Hi Abby,

Yes, I agree. However, do you think that Kelly could have known Blotchy? I mean, if he was merely a "client" would she have allowed him to stay for so long (assuming Kelly was killed around 4:00am, which I'm not entirely convinced about). Moreover, if the murder was planned would the killer have waited for several hours before striking? However, if they knew each other that would explain why they were eating together and, subsequently, why she permitted him to stay overnight. It also raises the possibility that the murder was not pre-planned, I.e Blotchy's initial intent, hence the time delay.

[Abby Normal]

Yeah Abby,
That's pretty much how I read it.

The one thing that puzzles me is that presumably the police checked all local pubs to see if any pub staff or locals saw Mary and/or Blotchy, and got no meaningful information.

Does this lean towards us ruling out the pub theory and postulating that Mary ate and drank elsewhere?

That's a good question.
But I don't think it does. I think people maybe just didn't remember them, or didn't want to get involved or that any leads just didn't go any where.

I still have a feeling they probably met at a pub and that blotchy bought her a drink or two and some food.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Yes, I agree. However, do you think that Kelly could have known Blotchy? I mean, if he was merely a "client" would she have allowed him to stay for so long (assuming Kelly was killed around 4:00am, which I'm not entirely convinced about). Moreover, if the murder was planned would the killer have waited for several hours before striking? However, if they knew each other that would explain why they were eating together and, subsequently, why she permitted him to stay overnight. It also raises the possibility that the murder was not pre-planned, I.e Blotchy's initial intent, hence the time delay.

Great questions John G.

I think she probably knew him. if not a client, maybe seeing him around or out in pubs etc. Im sure a fairly attractive young woman like Mary probably knew a lot of men, in varying degrees or friendship/professional/ romantic relationships. And it seems she did know a lot of men. All the factors seem to indicate she was very comfortable with him and probably knew him to some extant before that night. But possibly not. They may have just met and hit it off-him buying her drinks food etc.

One of the problems many people have is that if Blotchy killed her (and hence presumably the ripper) why would he wait so long until he killed her?
2 reasons-maybe he didn't and the 4:00 screams were unrelated. Or maybe he did and wanted to wait until the court had settled down. and/or mary passed out.

Im sure if Blotchy was the ripper, he was pretty much on planning to kill any woman he was able to get into a secluded situation.

[John G]

Great questions John G.

I think she probably knew him. if not a client, maybe seeing him around or out in pubs etc. Im sure a fairly attractive young woman like Mary probably knew a lot of men, in varying degrees or friendship/professional/ romantic relationships. And it seems she did know a lot of men. All the factors seem to indicate she was very comfortable with him and probably knew him to some extant before that night. But possibly not. They may have just met and hit it off-him buying her drinks food etc.

One of the problems many people have is that if Blotchy killed her (and hence presumably the ripper) why would he wait so long until he killed her?
2 reasons-maybe he didn't and the 4:00 screams were unrelated. Or maybe he did and wanted to wait until the court had settled down. and/or mary passed out.

Im sure if Blotchy was the ripper, he was pretty much on planning to kill any woman he was able to get into a secluded situation.

Hi Abby,

I think you made an excellent point earlier regarding the possibility that Blotchy and Kelly could have initially met in the pub. Although there are obviously no witnesses, the fact is we don't tend to remember casual observations: I was in a pub myself this lunch time but I couldn't describe anyone else who was there- even in the remotest detail- apart from the people I was with of course, although it was quite busy.

Regarding the possible delay in murdering Kelly. Firstly, although serial killers mainly kill strangers there is evidence that they also frequently kill people known to them: according to Hickey (1997) almost one third of a male serialist's victims are known to him. However, if Kelly was murdered by Blotchy, and assuming she wasn't a stranger and that he was also the Ripper, her murder would clearly be quite risky, I.e because of the personal connection. Therefore maybe her murder wasn't planned, but she just happened to say or do something that enraged him, causing him to lose control. In fact, if he was the Ripper I think it's fair to assume that he would have been so potentially dangerous, and unpredictable, that it could have been something quite minor, such as simply asking him to leave.

[Wickerman]

I think that's the $64000 question! Thus, according to Begg and Bennett (2012) the remains of her last meal, fish and potatoes, were in her stomach and intestines. Moreover, " Digestion ceases immediately on death and it typically takes two to four hours for food to pass out of the stomach into the intestines" (ibid, 186). Therefore, she was presumably killed around 2-4 hours after she'd last eaten. However, whenever that was is anybody's guess!

I've just been doing a little more research into this subject. It appears that the modern scientific view is that there is considerable variability amongst healthy people in transit times between different sections of the gastrointestinal tract. Thus, a very rough estimate is that it will take about 4-5 hours for the stomach to become totally emptied, and on that basis we can estimate that Kelly was possibly killed less than 5 hours after her last meal (although that's obviously not particularly helpful!). See: http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...s/transit.html

Hi John.

Those numbers are familiar, yes I agree.
Dr. Bond only gives us a summary but I suspect he was working with similar estimates. Plus, he doesn't provide us with any idea of how much food was in the intestines, or the stomach. We can only assume 50/50, so if the stomach will empty after around five hours then we might assume 2.5 hours, give or take 30 mins either way, between the end of her meal and the point of death.

Because Dr. Bond estimated a time of death between 1:00-2:00 am, (ignoring the cry of murder), then it looks like he assumed she finished her meal between 10:30-11:30, before going back to her room.
In other words, she ate out, perhaps with Blotchy?
So, not eating in her room, plus, Mrs Cox said nothing about either of them carrying a parcel of food.

However, if we use the cry of murder as the point of death, sometime between 3:30-4:00 am, then she must have finished eating about 1:00-1:30 am, so after her liaison with Blotchy?

[lynn cates]

waiting

Hello John.

"Moreover, if the murder was planned would the killer have waited for several hours before striking?"

Excellent observation. Also, are we to imagine him sitting in a chair, fully dressed so as to conceal his knife whilst she undressed and went to bed?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

collateral noise

Hello Abby. I prefer your former. IF Blotchy killed "MJK," then the 4.00 cries were merely collateral noise.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

Hello John.

"Moreover, if the murder was planned would the killer have waited for several hours before striking?"

Excellent observation. Also, are we to imagine him sitting in a chair, fully dressed so as to conceal his knife whilst she undressed and went to bed?

Cheers.
LC

"Is that a knife in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

[lynn cates]

no trace

Hello John. As you may recall, the nearest pubs were searched for anyone answering to Blotchy's description. Moreover, even the "pot boys" were consulted. No luck.

Cheers.
LC