When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[John G]

Hello John. As you may recall, the nearest pubs were searched for anyone answering to Blotchy's description. Moreover, even the "pot boys" were consulted. No luck.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, I have to say that Blotchy has always concerned me as a suspect. Thus, Kelly was described by Cox as being very drunk, I.e barely able to speak, suggesting that she may have been socializing with Blotchy for some time. However, despite his clearly distinctive complexion Cox is the only witness that noticed him in Kelly's company, or for that matter noticed him at all. Given the unreliability of a number of witnesses throughout this inquiry it does make you wonder about Mary Ann Cox's evidence.

[John G]

Hello John.

"Moreover, if the murder was planned would the killer have waited for several hours before striking?"

Excellent observation. Also, are we to imagine him sitting in a chair, fully dressed so as to conceal his knife whilst she undressed and went to bed?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Interestingly, didn't Dr Bond suggest that Kelly may have been asleep at the time she was attacked, I.e because she was found lying in the middle of the bed with a sheet pulled up over her neck?

[John G]

Hi John.

Those numbers are familiar, yes I agree.
Dr. Bond only gives us a summary but I suspect he was working with similar estimates. Plus, he doesn't provide us with any idea of how much food was in the intestines, or the stomach. We can only assume 50/50, so if the stomach will empty after around five hours then we might assume 2.5 hours, give or take 30 mins either way, between the end of her meal and the point of death.

Because Dr. Bond estimated a time of death between 1:00-2:00 am, (ignoring the cry of murder), then it looks like he assumed she finished her meal between 10:30-11:30, before going back to her room.
In other words, she ate out, perhaps with Blotchy?
So, not eating in her room, plus, Mrs Cox said nothing about either of them carrying a parcel of food.

However, if we use the cry of murder as the point of death, sometime between 3:30-4:00 am, then she must have finished eating about 1:00-1:30 am, so after her liaison with Blotchy?

Hello Jon,

I'm not at all convinced by the theory that Kelly was probably killed between 3:30 and 4:00am. Firstly, although the cry of "murder" or "oh murder" was heard by two separate witnesses they give contradictory accounts: Sarah Lewis describes the cry as a "scream", where as Elizabeth Pratter, who lived in the room above Kelly, said the cry was in a faint voice (in fact, was Lewis' room much further away from Kelly's than Pratter's? If so, Pratter may only have heard a faint sound because it emanated from a room some distance away from her own, and Kelly's, I.e. somewhere closer to Lewis's accommodation.) And, of course, such cries were commonplace anyway.

Moreover, as I noted in my reply to Lynn, Dr Bond seemed to think that Kelly was probably asleep when she was attacked, which suggests that she may have been attacked without warning and not given the opportunity to cry out at all.

[curious4]

Hello Jon,

I'm not at all convinced by the theory that Kelly was probably killed between 3:30 and 4:00am. Firstly, although the cry of "murder" or "oh murder" was heard by two separate witnesses they give contradictory accounts: Sarah Lewis describes the cry as a "scream", where as Elizabeth Pratter, who lived in the room above Kelly, said the cry was in a faint voice (in fact, was Lewis' room much further away from Kelly's than Pratter's? If so, Pratter may only have heard a faint sound because it emanated from a room some distance away from her own, and Kelly's, I.e. somewhere closer to Lewis's accommodation.) And, of course, such cries were commonplace anyway.

Moreover, as I noted in my reply to Lynn, Dr Bond seemed to think that Kelly was probably asleep when she was attacked, which suggests that she may have been attacked without warning and not given the opportunity to cry out at all.

Hello John

Weren't there cuts to her hand, suggesting she was holding the sheet over her head when attacked?

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

"Is that a knife in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

Hello GUT

What about "you will be comfortable"? Couldn't that suggest he told Mary he needed a place to wait in for something? Train, perhaps?

Best wishes
C4

[GUT]

Hello GUT

What about "you will be comfortable"? Couldn't that suggest he told Mary he needed a place to wait in for something? Train, perhaps?

Best wishes
C4

But wasn't that "A" man?

[John G]

Hello John

Weren't there cuts to her hand, suggesting she was holding the sheet over her head when attacked?

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

According to Dr Bond there was a "small superficial incision" to the right thumb. Of course, this might be indicative of a token attempt at defence, however, presumably such a superficial cut may have nothing to do with attack. The sheet, at the right-hand corner of the bed, was bloody and badly cut. This suggested to Dr Bond that Kelly's face may have been covered by the sheet at the time she was attacked.

[curious4]

But wasn't that "A" man?

Sorry, got my muddled little old lady head on today!

Best wishes
C4

[GUT]

Sorry, got my muddled little old lady head on today!

Best wishes
C4

Est nada

hAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME

[curious4]

Hello C4,

According to Dr Bond there was a "small superficial incision" to the right thumb. Of course, this might be indicative of a token attempt at defence, however, presumably such a superficial cut may have nothing to do with attack. The sheet, at the right-hand corner of the bed, was bloody and badly cut. This suggested to Dr Bond that Kelly's face may have been covered by the sheet at the time she was attacked.

Hello John

I don't see how she would have got a cut on her right thumb any other way. He didn't target her hands and the right thumb would have been the only part of her hand visible if she was holding the sheet over her head. People don't normally sleep with the sheet covering their face.

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Hello John

I don't see how she would have got a cut on her right thumb any other way. He didn't target her hands and the right thumb would have been the only part of her hand visible if she was holding the sheet over her head. People don't normally sleep with the sheet covering their face.

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

Possibly. However, presumably she may have accidentally cut herself earlier in the evening-remember, the cut was very superficial. I wonder, is it possible that the killer placed the sheet over her head, I.e to prevent being covered with arterial spray as he cut her throat?

[packers stem]

Hi All
We were discussing the food on this thread last week

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9060&page=16

Concerning the likelihood of a fish supper being consumed.There were street vendors selling all kinds at different times of day including fried fish and potato shavings .A lot of these vendors set up late in the evening to cater for people leaving the pubs but by 4 they had been replaced by the breakfast sellers ,pretty much coffee and a piece of bread .
Best guess for the meal would be before 2 i suspect but i think after 4 would be out of the question

[curious4]

Hello C4,

Possibly. However, presumably she may have accidentally cut herself earlier in the evening-remember, the cut was very superficial. I wonder, is it possible that the killer placed the sheet over her head, I.e to prevent being covered with arterial spray as he cut her throat?

Hello John

We can but hope that Mary had cut herself earlier. Not convinced myself though. I remember reading in one of the press reports some years ago about a vicar/doctor who threatened his family with a gun. When he reached the maid's room she pulled the sheet over her head. Not much help when faced with a gun, but I can't help thinking that Mary may have done the same thing.

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Est nada

hAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME

Hello GUT

Haha glad it's not just me! :-)

Best wishes
C4

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think you made an excellent point earlier regarding the possibility that Blotchy and Kelly could have initially met in the pub. Although there are obviously no witnesses, the fact is we don't tend to remember casual observations: I was in a pub myself this lunch time but I couldn't describe anyone else who was there- even in the remotest detail- apart from the people I was with of course, although it was quite busy.

Regarding the possible delay in murdering Kelly. Firstly, although serial killers mainly kill strangers there is evidence that they also frequently kill people known to them: according to Hickey (1997) almost one third of a male serialist's victims are known to him. However, if Kelly was murdered by Blotchy, and assuming she wasn't a stranger and that he was also the Ripper, her murder would clearly be quite risky, I.e because of the personal connection. Therefore maybe her murder wasn't planned, but she just happened to say or do something that enraged him, causing him to lose control. In fact, if he was the Ripper I think it's fair to assume that he would have been so potentially dangerous, and unpredictable, that it could have been something quite minor, such as simply asking him to leave.

Hi JohnG
good points.

However- I think once the ripper got in full swing, he was pretty much planning on killing any woman he got alone. I don't think the anger trigger comes into effect once they get going. if there was any kind of anger trigger involved I think it was with Tabram as the first kill-the evidence seems to point to it with the angry like viscious stabbings. Experts in serial homicide have often cited that a lot of the killers first kill is not necessarily planned but can be "accidental" and triggered by anger.

Another possibility is that Blotchy had seen Mary out, and her youth and good looks attracted him as a potential victim, and he was stalking her so to speak, or at least looking for any opportunity to meet her and kill her.