Did Mary know her killer?

[Wickerman]

Just pointing out Jon that we have hard evidence that Mary ran arrears before Millers Court, causing her eviction. She is obviously not the kind of person who meets her responsibilities, hence, not the type to work hungover in the rain to earn money she owes to someone else.

Cheers

Fair enough Michael.
How's about earning money so she can eat or drink?

Incidentally, I am not convinced she ran up so much debt. I suspect McCarthy saw an opportunity to make some money by exaggerating, or even inventing a debt, then there was always a chance Barnett or more likely some family member would step forward to settle it.

[c.d.]

If Mary answered her door at 3:45, exclaimed "oh-murder" in annoyance at being woken in the middle of the night, and still let the person enter the room, how could they not be someone known well to her? Remember how she was dressed and where she was when found cd...that kind of intimacy = knowledge.

Cheers

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

[GUT]

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

Or in more, the only surprise is that she still had the chemise on.

[c.d.]

Or in more, the only surprise is that she still had the chemise on.

That could be explained by the killer striking quickly before Mary could undress completely.

c.d.

[GUT]

That could be explained by the killer striking quickly before Mary could undress completely.

c.d.

Or upset because it wasn't off yet

[gnote]

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Fair enough Michael.
How's about earning money so she can eat or drink?

Incidentally, I am not convinced she ran up so much debt. I suspect McCarthy saw an opportunity to make some money by exaggerating, or even inventing a debt, then there was always a chance Barnett or more likely some family member would step forward to settle it.

If she was on good terms regarding rent, then why wasn't her window fixed Jon? I think the historical perspective on Mary is more telling that any hunches...she ran arrears before Millers Court, and was evicted for it.

As for eating and drinking....I believe she came home piss drunk and after eating....so I don't think that's really applicable here.

Cheers Jon

[Michael W Richards]

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

A Street Prostitute who, as of October 30th, we have no records for that indicate that she had ever brought any client home with her,..was in her own bed, undressed, is not indicative of any solicitation on her part.

It is indicative that the person who killed her evidently didn't kill her outdoors....but that wont stop you Ripper enthusiasts, Im sure. You imagine she is bringing clients home when she never has, you imagine an outdoor killer is prowling small courtyards for a chance to finally kill indoors, and you imagine that someone with her in her own room in her own name after 3:30am is a stranger to her...you should write fantasy cd. You certainly have the mindset for it.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Is there any indication how often McCarthy sent Bowyer to collect rent from Kelly regularly? Bowyer was outside Kelly's apartment a few times the night of her murder the last time reported to be 3am at the tap roughly 45 minutes before the cries of Murder Murder. He returns again in the morning to discover Kelly's body. Did Bowyer have a copy of McCarthys key to room 13? It simply doesn't make sense to me that Kelly would have the only copy of the key. A Landlord usually keeps a master copy. Kelly was a prostitute who hadn't paid her rent in six weeks. Why would Carthy trust her with the only copy? Could Bowyer have paid Kelly a visit after 3 am?

Something I'd like to clarify: why is Kelly's cry frequently referred to as "oh murder" when her neighbor stated she heard multiple screams of Murder! Very different things with different implications. The screams have been described as coming from the court, interestingly where Bowyer was several times that night. Did Kelly have any reason to go into the court after 3am? Could Bowyer have returned to the court once more around 3:45?

[Michael W Richards]

Something I'd like to clarify: why is Kelly's cry frequently referred to as "oh murder" when her neighbor stated she heard multiple screams of Murder! Very different things with different implications. The screams have been described as coming from the court, interestingly where Bowyer was several times that night. Did Kelly have any reason to go into the court after 3am? Could Bowyer have returned to the court once more around 3:45?

2 witnesses heard cries of "0h-murder" at approximately the same time, sometime between 3:30 and 4am. These cries were described as being as close as the witness's door, and as if from the courtyard respectively. Using both witnesses we have good cause to assume that a living female was inside the courtyard but not any one room when she made the call out. There was no more sound heard by either witness. No witness claimed to be that person, or provide statements that would indicate that.

My own personal feeling is that they heard Mary being woken from sleep only to find when opening her door someone she knows well but certainly didn't expect to be showing up there in the middle of the night. She then lets him in.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

2 witnesses heard cries of "0h-murder" at approximately the same time, sometime between 3:30 and 4am. These cries were described as being as close as the witness's door, and as if from the courtyard respectively. Using both witnesses we have good cause to assume that a living female was inside the courtyard but not any one room when she made the call out. There was no more sound heard by either witness. No witness claimed to be that person, or provide statements that would indicate that.

My own personal feeling is that they heard Mary being woken from sleep only to find when opening her door someone she knows well but certainly didn't expect to be showing up there in the middle of the night. She then lets him in.

Cheers

Prater: She then went up to her room and to bed. Between 3.30 and 4.00am, she was awoken by her kitten 'Diddles' walking across her neck and at that moment heard screams of murder, about two or three times, in a female voice. She did not take much notice as such cries were frequent.

So this says she heard screams of Murder Murder Murder not oh murder which is a drastic difference. Who was the visitor.. Bowyer? Would Kelly have gone into the courtyard for any reason at 345?

[RockySullivan]

I find this pretty interesting, a pipe found in Kelly's room & smashed. Why? The tobacco....a clue...very interesting:

1 When Sir Robert Anderson was interviewed about the Luard murder case in The Daily Chronicle, 1 September 1908, he remarked that, in the case of the Whitechapel murders, there were two distinct clues that were destroyed. One clue was the obliteration of the writing on the wall in Goulston Street; the other clue was a clay pipe that was smashed by a doctor in the fireplace of Mary Kelly’s room. Although it has been surmised that Anderson was referring to a pipe found underneath Alice McKenzie’s body in 1889 or to Joseph Barnett’s (unbroken) pipe in Miller’s Court, it is more likely that he meant another pipe found and broken in Kelly’s room. But he may not have been so concerned with the pipe itself, as with the particular blend of tobacco found in it. Say, a blend that could be traced to a certain tobacco shop, which a suspect was known to frequent.

Quote from The butchers row suspect by Scott Nelson http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...tchersrow.html

[Rosella]

What a really interesting link Rocky, thanks for posting it.

Of course the pipe allegedly found in Mary's room may have come from anyone, as women too smoked clay pipes in those days. Nevertheless, it's disappointing if the doctor, presumably Bond, smashed it. The stem probably broke off but the tobacco in the pipe bowl could still presumably have been traced, if it hadn't all been smoked down to a sticky tar.

[Wickerman]

If she was on good terms regarding rent, then why wasn't her window fixed Jon?

The unrepaired hovels down Millers Court says just as much about McCarthy as it does about the tenants who occupied them.

As for eating and drinking....I believe she came home piss drunk and after eating....so I don't think that's really applicable here.

You keep saying this in spite of the fact you know Cox had no idea she was drunk until she turned to speak. When anyone is "piss-drunk" they will stagger.
Indications are, Kelly was not that drunk, in fact Hutchinson nailed it when he said she was "spree'ish".

A Street Prostitute who, as of October 30th, we have no records for that indicate that she had ever brought any client home with her,..was in her own bed, undressed, is not indicative of any solicitation on her part....

Prater, Cox, Lewis & Kennedy all slept fully dressed, but of course they would, that was normal. Only Kelly was entertaining, only Kelly was undressed. This is our clue that no-one broke in, that no-one interrupted her sleep. She was undressed and on one half of the bed because whoever she was with laid on the other half.
Kelly was killed by one of those clients that you say never existed.

[Batman]

You keep saying this in spite of the fact you know Cox had no idea she was drunk until she turned to speak. When anyone is "piss-drunk" they will stagger.
Indications are, Kelly was not that drunk, in fact Hutchinson nailed it when he said she was "spree'ish".

MJK was an alcoholic seen by Cox going into her room with Blotchy carrying a pale of ale. She was singing drunk and no doubt getting even more drunk with him.

I don't trust Hutchinson because his whole account has to be taken on faith. There isn't even a description of him to match Cox's description.