Did Mary know her killer?

[Amanda]

Just to add....

Hi All,
Just want to add one scenario that I feel may have been missed.

What if MJK's killer actually knocked, waited for her to open the door and then put his foot in it to prevent her from closing it?

If Jack was a large/strong man it probably wouldn't have taken much force to push his way in.
Supposing this to be the case, why didn't she scream for help? Perhaps she did know him but in a negative context, maybe owing him money or him being a former lover.
I feel that poor Mary, due to the terrible mutilation of her body, was more of a revenge or personal hatred killing rather than a random attack.

Amanda

[Batman]

Uncorroborated stories?, you can add Cox to that list.

Prater corroborated Cox.

Hence why Cox made the inquest unlike some others.

[Robert]

Thanks Errata. Are you a Hutchinsonian?

[lynn cates]

Make mine Irish.

Hello CD.

"prostitutes routinely go off to dark places and have sex with someone they just met."

Not to mention regaling them with strains of Irish folk music.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Good night.

Hello Amanda.

"What if MJK's killer actually knocked, waited for her to open the door and then put his foot in it to prevent her from closing it?

If Jack was a large/strong man it probably wouldn't have taken much force to push his way in.
Supposing this to be the case, why didn't she scream for help?"

And why did she go back to bed?

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

What if MJK's killer actually knocked, waited for her to open the door and then put his foot in it to prevent her from closing it?

It would mean he was a door-to-door salesman.

[Abby Normal]

Maurice Lewis sees Mary Kelly in the morning as well as Maxwell. Doesn't that mean it's somewhat corroborated?

Hi rocky
well, since Mr Lewis says he saw her at 10:00 am in a bar drinking and her body was discovered approx. 10:45am think we can safely rule out his sighting.

I think we can rule out Maxwells sighting as well for several reasons:

1. TOD by the drs. I know TOD is not exact but I doubt they could have been that off.

2. Her account was questioned by the coroner.

3. Since marys face was so mangled, Maxwell could not have IDed her anyway as the women she saw.

4. The large fire and burnt cloths indicate a much earlier and longer time period that Mary was with her killer than what the Maxwell sighting would allow.

5. Someone so sick as mary was according to Maxwell would doubtfully be in any shape to engage clients for prostitution.

6. She admitted she didn't know her that well, so maybe she had her mixed up with someone else.

Im not sure what was going on with Maxwell but I think we can rule her out as well.

[RockySullivan]

Hi rocky
well, since Mr Lewis says he saw her at 10:00 am in a bar drinking and her body was discovered approx. 10:45am think we can safely rule out his sighting.

I think we can rule out Maxwells sighting as well for several reasons:

1. TOD by the drs. I know TOD is not exact but I doubt they could have been that off.

2. Her account was questioned by the coroner.

3. Since marys face was so mangled, Maxwell could not have IDed her anyway as the women she saw.

4. The large fire and burnt cloths indicate a much earlier and longer time period that Mary was with her killer than what the Maxwell sighting would allow.

5. Someone so sick as mary was according to Maxwell would doubtfully be in any shape to engage clients for prostitution.

6. She admitted she didn't know her that well, so maybe she had her mixed up with someone else.

Im not sure what was going on with Maxwell but I think we can rule her out as well.

Thanks Abby those are all solider reasons for suspecting Maxwell was mistaken or lying. If however on the small change Maxwell was correct, it would make me a little suspicious of Thomas Bowyer. For instance, what time did McCarthy tell Bowyer to go pay Kelly a visit?

[Amanda]

Hello Amanda.

"What if MJK's killer actually knocked, waited for her to open the door and then put his foot in it to prevent her from closing it?

If Jack was a large/strong man it probably wouldn't have taken much force to push his way in.
Supposing this to be the case, why didn't she scream for help?"

And why did she go back to bed?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
Perhaps she got into bed trying to entice her visitor to take payment in 'kind'.

Amanda

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby those are all solider reasons for suspecting Maxwell was mistaken or lying. If however on the small change Maxwell was correct, it would make me a little suspicious of Thomas Bowyer. For instance, what time did McCarthy tell Bowyer to go pay Kelly a visit?

Hi Rocky
Thanks-absolutely. Actually, whether or not Maxwell was incorrect or not, Bowyer is a person who should be looked at. Debra Arif found a newspaper article in which their is a direct quote from him stating he was in court in the middle of the night, the night she was killed.
But yes if the chance that Maxwell was true then even more suspicion would fall on Bowyer, especially if its found he went to call on her earlier.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
Thanks-absolutely. Actually, whether or not Maxwell was incorrect or not, Bowyer is a person who should be looked at. Debra Arif found a newspaper article in which their is a direct quote from him stating he was in court in the middle of the night, the night she was killed.
But yes if the chance that Maxwell was true then even more suspicion would fall on Bowyer, especially if its found he went to call on her earlier.

Yes I recently read that he was at the tap around 3am In a thread. One thing that struck me as odd was the police said when he entered the station he couldn't utter an intelligible word at first. If he had knocked on Kelly's apartment late at night she knows him he could've gained entry on a false premise. Then again he may had had access to a key! It's most curious that McCarthy let the rent go for six weeks until the morning she was murdered. On the casebook page it also says there is a descripensy about bowyer stating in one version that McCarthy accompanied him to the station.

In the chapman inquest records there is talk of a pensioner and ted Stanley vehemently denies being that pensioner. Is this the same type of pensioner that bowyer was? Could he have been chapmans mysterious pensioner?

Would Maxwell have known bowyer? The Maxwell account is most strange when you take into account the letter from "how strange is this" thread.

I agree with you Abby, the fact that bowyer was there in the middle of the night means he has a chance to kill her then as well as the later time!

[Harry D]

The pose, the facial injuries, the missing heart... if you were writing a screenplay for a horror movie about an insane stalker, Mary Kelly is exactly what the murder would look like, adding only obsessive scrawling on the walls and possible a hanged culprit in the corner. Kelly's murder is different than the others, and it's about the tone and potential message sent. It feels targeted. Which doesn't mean Kelly was killed by someone else necessarily, but I think it does mean she was killed for a different reason. I mean, this guy could have sold her buttons a few times and that was enough for him to decide they were destined to be together. He didn't have to actually know her. Most stalkers don't know their victims. They make up a story. And Kelly's killer could have had some little lost girl who just needed a kind man to take her away from the squalor of her life thing going on. Pretty common fantasy. She breaks the fantasy and he kills her. It's personal because he thought he knew her. She failed him. Rationally you can't fail someone you don't know. Tell a stalker that, though.

It feels personal. That doesn't mean actual knowledge of each other. It means he saw her at some point and got insanely attached. He thought they were soulmates. Sure, it was because she smiled at him when he dropped his paper across the street from her, but for him it was enough.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, Errata, although I don't think we can read that much into the Ripper's cuts, you probably already know what I'm going to say. Had this been an isolated murder, and not on the back of a series of kills escalating in violence, then I think your argument would carry more weight. Eddowes' murder also carried facial mutilations similar to Mary Kelly, albeit less extreme, evincing the killer's desire to dehumanize his victims. If that same man found himself indoors and left undisturbed with his next prey, surely Mary Kelly's fate would not be unexpected?

[GUT]

G'day Rocky

How know thee that Javk let the rent go 6 weeks rather vthan having his man knocking on the door every day, or every week getting a penny here and a penny there but still not enough to catch up.

[eighty-eighter]

Would the ripper have risked mutilating Kelly the way he did if someone outside had the key and could come in at anytime? Kelly didn't have a key, neither did her landlord, it is somewhat logical that the ripper might've had the only key, and if so then he knew Kelly, unless he got it thru a thrid party or stole it.

Were there not bolts on the inside of the door, or was it just a simple latch ?

[Errata]

Thanks Errata. Are you a Hutchinsonian?

I'm not, though I think his story is total crap. I think he would have been perfectly capable of killing Kelly, because he clearly had very weird propriety feelings going on, but I don't see him killing the others.