MJK pregnancy

[The Rookie Detective]

Fascinating Thread and I've just noticed something which may be of interest.

Maria Harvey is linked to Miller's Court and was in the company of MJK the day before she was murdered and stayed over with her earlier during the week.

Maria mentions that she last saw MJK making her way towards Leman Street, in which MJK was in the habit of frequenting.

Maria Harvey has a room in 3 New Court, Dorset Street at the time...

But she had recently spent a couple of nights with MJK instead of staying at her own place.



AND...she previously lived in Station Place in Shadwell which runs along the train track which links to Whitechapel.

She has two sons, one of whom was run over just a few months before the murders started.

He is taken to hospital and treated by the same surgeon who treated The Elephant Man.

The address is stated as 2 Dorset Court, but that could have meant 26 Dorset Street, which is essentially Millers Court. Because it states COURT and not a street, it's likely the address means 2 Millers Court.

Maria Harvey is living with Henry Owen.

Now lets jump forward to the year 1892...

On November 5th (Guy Fawkes Night) around 5pm a man approached a young woman called Emily Smith...

Now I would urge those who aren't familiar with her story to check it out because if her story is true, then we have another link.


At the time it must be said that the police discounted her story... BUT she remained adamant throughout her being questioned for hours by the police and interviews by the press and even under the knowledge that she would be convicted if she was lying...and she held steadfast and was adamant she was telling the truth about the night she was attacked.

Long story short... a man approached her in Cheapside and he convinced her to go to a coffee house. They walked down various streets etc...and ended up somewhere unfamiliar to her and she asked where they were and he replied "This is Whitechapel."

He then convinced her to go with him further and they then went East on a tramcar/omnibus? and went East down Commerical Road and as they traveled got talking about the murders 4 years previous. His reaction was strange and indifferent, yet he said the victims were old women who were "better off out of the way."

Interestingly...as they approached the junction of Commerical Street and Leman Street, the man pointed towards Leman street and stated something like "That's where Jack the Ripper was!" (paraphrasing from memory)

They then got off their transport at the junction with Sutton Road at the George IV pub and walked south down Sutton Road towards Cable Street.

They walked past Martha Street to their right and went under the train bridge which ran WEST/EAST and came out by the railway arch at Station Place (now called Shadwell place)

At the time, they were constructing a new platform for the train line link to Whitechapel and so there was a lot of boarding and construction. It was also dark and VERY foggy and he gestured for her to walk with him West down Station Place, a small narrow alleyway that ran along the length of the train line.

It was at this point she got suspicious because he had initially mentioned about going to Upton Park which was East.

When she refused his persona suddenly changed and he quietly told her he would "Settle her now then!"

He grabbed her and dragged her up towards the alcove/up against the wall. As he tried to spin her around so that he could be behind her, she noticed he had a knife which he had pulled from his sleeve which was around 9 inches in length. She instinctively lifted her knee hard into his groin before he could spin her around and he reeled back but then lunged at her with the knife, which just missed her. She managed to run screaming towards the main Sutton road and the killer fled down west down Station place as 2 other women traveling up Sutton road came to the aid of Emily after she had screamed.

Now if you walk far enough West down Station Place, you end up coming out near Chapman Street and then Cable Street which runs south of Pinchin Street.


So let's tie all this together...

Was the attack on Emily Smith attempted by the ripper himself?

If we are to believe her story, then she states that the killer referred directly to the ripper being in Leman Street.

MJK frequented Leman Street as stated by Maria Harvey.

Maria Harvey lived in Station Place, the exact location the attacker of Emily Smith took her after frequenting a coffee house and taking his time with getting her to feel comfortable with him before lashing out at her with intent to kill her.

His intention was to harm or kill her and the TRAIN LINE is a recurrent theme throughout the Ripper Murders. The Right Track. Nichols, Coles etc...

Now let's hypothesize that this man WAS the ripper and he took Emily to Station Place to murder her, a place which Maria Harvey lived prior to moving to 3 new Court, Dorset Street with her sons, one of whom was knocked down by a cart shortly before the murders took place.

Now...

What if the killer was connected to Maria Harvey in some way?

Did MJK know the killer from frequenting Leman Street?

Did the potential killer tell Emily his place of residence in Lema Street during his killing spree of 88/89? Bearing in mind that he intended to kill Emily Smith. Like a villain giving up his secrets at the end of a movie because he thinks he can't be stopped or found out.

At some point Maria Harvey moved from Station Place to Dorset Street.
MJK is linked to Maria Harvey for days leading up to her murder and Leman Street is a place MJK used to frequent for business.
The man who attacked Emily Smith in 1892 and who stated the killer was in Leman Street at the time of the murders (and was likely referring to himself)
He takes his next victim to Station Place to kill her and that links back around to Maria Harvey


Is there more to Maria Harvey and her children that we realize in terms of her connection to MJK's murder?

Were Maria and MJK connected in more ways than one?

Are there any suspects that e know of who lived in Leman Street at the time of the killings?

Lots to think about


thought please


RD

[FISHY1118]

If Maria Harvey stayed with Kelly, perhaps her son did too. There was a lot of confusing info about boys/youths in the papers at the time. Even Walter Dew seems to have believed that Thomas Bowyer was a youth. And there was one account of a boy who went with his mother to collect Kelly’s rent and discovered her body in the hallway of 13, Miller’s Court.

Of course, none of that discounts Kelly having had a child herself, but if she had, you would expect Joe Barnett to have mentioned it.

Perhaps . But it wouldnt have been his child so maybe he just didnt care to much . But i see your point.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks for the post B , But still it doesnt discount Kelly from having a six year old child of her own as well does it? . Especially this part of that report

She had a little boy, ''aged about six or seven years'', ''living with her''! ...Why would Maria Harveys son be living with a Known Prostitute named Mary
Kelly?





''As she could not bare to see ''her'' boy starving'' .... Again, a reference that suggest it was her boy not Maria Harveys

If Maria Harvey stayed with Kelly, perhaps her son did too. There was a lot of confusing info about boys/youths in the papers at the time. Even Walter Dew seems to have believed that Thomas Bowyer was a youth. And there was one account of a boy who went with his mother to collect Kelly’s rent and discovered her body in the hallway of 13, Miller’s Court.

Of course, none of that discounts Kelly having had a child herself, but if she had, you would expect Joe Barnett to have mentioned it.

[FISHY1118]

she didnt have a son. the article was wrong and even states its unreliable. perhaps it was a mix up with Maria Harveys son.

Hi Abby , It only states that ''Confirmation, if its true would be difficult to obtain'' , So i wouldnt goes as far as to say it was flat out wrong.

How many posters here of late have used press reports that are ''Not Proven'' to make a point ? Saying that, im not a big fan of the press . Only that im researching this perticular point re Kellys child away from Casebook where ive found a Reference to kelly indeed having a child ,which a certian Ripperoligist has researched that didnt come from the Report i posted .

So in short, now i have found two different/ separate references to a Kelly child . What will happen when and if there is a 3rd orf 4th ? Makes for an interesting topic . Cheers Fishy

See my above response posted to mr B about a mix up with maria harveys boy.

[FISHY1118]

Debra found a workhouse record of a washerwoman named Maria Harvey who had two sons, one, John, born in 1882 and the other, William, born in 1884. Her address was in Station Place, a narrow street of brothels near Shadwell Station which can be linked to 79, Pennington Street.

The press report and London Hospital admission record below refer to a John Harvey, aged 6 who was involved in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888. His address is given as 2, Dorset Court, but may have been 2, Miller’s Court or 2, New Court.

I’ve searched high and low for an alternative Maria Harvey with no success.



London Hospital Admission Record

Accident No.: 2
Patient's name: John Harvey
Residence: 2, Dorset Court, Com[mercia]l St, Whitechapel
Age and Civil State: 6
Occupation: School
By whom recommended: -
Ward: 2V [?unclear]
Case: Contusions(run over)
Surgeon: [Frederick] Treves
Time of Discharge: June 6 1888
Days in hospital: 4
[Patient marked as "Cured"]

Thanks for the post B , But still it doesnt discount Kelly from having a six year old child of her own as well does it? . Especially this part of that report

She had a little boy, ''aged about six or seven years'', ''living with her''! ...Why would Maria Harveys son be living with a Known Prostitute named Mary
Kelly?





''As she could not bare to see ''her'' boy starving'' .... Again, a reference that suggest it was her boy not Maria Harveys

[MrBarnett]

Surely not that maniac Cross again?

Could be… ;-)

[Joshua Rogan]

The press report and London Hospital admission record below refer to a John Harvey, aged 6 who was involved in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888.

Surely not that maniac Cross again?

[C. F. Leon]

"Today, I believe the term gravidity can be used to specify the number of children a woman has had." Quote mine.

Correction: the term Gravida refers to the number of pregnancies a woman's had. Gravida plus the number.

The freedictionary gives a date of around 1925 for the term but 1880 for the use of para as in primipara or multipara.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gravida

The gist of the thread is really about why he didn't take the uterus away with him. But, now that the technical terms are clear, I think we can agree that the dead woman was not pregnant at the time she was killed.

Nowadays in Biology we use "gravid" to refer to egg-laying animals with developing eggs, "pregnant" is reserved for live-birthing mammals- a bird may be gravid, never pregnant; a cow or mouse is pregnant and you may talk about their "Gravida".

"Gravid" may well have been used rather than "pregnant" by a Victorian doctor as a more technical term than pregnancy, which may have been reserved for later stages (3rd trimester, for instance), or perhaps just general reluctance to use a "vulgar" term.

[MrBarnett]

I should add that Station Place shared the honour of being described as the worst street in London with Dorset Street.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/victoriana/the-east-end-of-london/31497-station-place-shadwell

[MrBarnett]

This is from one of the admission records of Maria Harvey and her two sons into the Raine Street workhouse on 27th April, 1887. She was recorded as a destitute widowed washerwoman and her address was shown as 18, Station Place.


I’m keeping my fingers tightly crossed that Debs or one of the others in the A-Z team have found out more about Maria Harvey.

[Abby Normal]

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.
[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts, a little boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet with black satin strings, a pawn-ticket for a grey shawl, upon which 2s had been lent, and a little girls white petticoat.
[Coroner] Have you seen any of these articles since? - Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon.
[Coroner] Did the deceased ever speak to you about being afraid of any man ? - She did not.



I take that as Maria left with Mary Kellys two mens Dirty shirts and a Little boys shirt


Julia Vanturney [Van Turney], 1, Miller's-court, a charwoman, living with Harry Owen, said: I knew the deceased for some time as Kelly, and I knew Joe Barnett, who lived with her. He would not allow her to go on the streets. Deceased often got drunk. She said she was fond of another man, also named Joe. I never saw this man. I believe he was a costermonger.

Mary Kellys two mens dirty shirts . Joe Barnetts and another man named Joe .

i think Maria Harvey left Mary with those items of clothes, not that she took them from mary

[Abby Normal]

The course of events is complicated by subsequent press reports that, although self-admittedly unconfirmed, tell a remarkable story. The Herts. and Cambs. reporter on 16.11. gives the following details of the events of the 8th/9th November:

"She had a little boy, ''aged about six or seven years'', living with her, and latterly her circumstances had been so reduced that she is reported to have stated to a companion that she would make away with herself, as she could not bear to see her boy starving ....a man who is described as respectably dressed, came up and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man accompanied the woman to her lodgings, which are on the second floor, the little boy being sent to a neighbour's house. Nothing more was seen of the woman. On Friday morning, it is stated, the little boy was sent back into the house, and the report goes that he was sent out subsequently on an errand by the man who was in the house with his mother. Confirmation of this statement is, it is true, difficult to obtain, and it remains in doubt whether anyone really saw the unfortunate woman on the morning of the discovery."

The Hertfordshire Mercury on the 10.11 also suggests that there was someone else in Kelly's room, but "there is no evidence as to who was in the house with her."

The Herts. Advertiser & St. Albans Times on 10.11 describes Kelly's son as around 10-11 years of age and adds: "The story of the crime current among the neighbours is that this morning - what time cannot at present be ascertained, but at any rate after daylight - she took a man home to her own room, presumably for an immoral purpose."


Is there anyway it can be confimed that Mary Jane Kelly had a son ? .

she didnt have a son. the article was wrong and even states its unreliable. perhaps it was a mix up with Maria Harveys son.

[MrBarnett]

Where does that seem likely ?

Debra found a workhouse record of a washerwoman named Maria Harvey who had two sons, one, John, born in 1882 and the other, William, born in 1884. Her address was in Station Place, a narrow street of brothels near Shadwell Station which can be linked to 79, Pennington Street.

The press report and London Hospital admission record below refer to a John Harvey, aged 6 who was involved in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888. His address is given as 2, Dorset Court, but may have been 2, Miller’s Court or 2, New Court.

I’ve searched high and low for an alternative Maria Harvey with no success.



London Hospital Admission Record

Accident No.: 2
Patient's name: John Harvey
Residence: 2, Dorset Court, Com[mercia]l St, Whitechapel
Age and Civil State: 6
Occupation: School
By whom recommended: -
Ward: 2V [?unclear]
Case: Contusions(run over)
Surgeon: [Frederick] Treves
Time of Discharge: June 6 1888
Days in hospital: 4
[Patient marked as "Cured"]

[FISHY1118]

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.
[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts, a little boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet with black satin strings, a pawn-ticket for a grey shawl, upon which 2s had been lent, and a little girls white petticoat.
[Coroner] Have you seen any of these articles since? - Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon.
[Coroner] Did the deceased ever speak to you about being afraid of any man ? - She did not.



I take that as Maria left with Mary Kellys two mens Dirty shirts and a Little boys shirt


Julia Vanturney [Van Turney], 1, Miller's-court, a charwoman, living with Harry Owen, said: I knew the deceased for some time as Kelly, and I knew Joe Barnett, who lived with her. He would not allow her to go on the streets. Deceased often got drunk. She said she was fond of another man, also named Joe. I never saw this man. I believe he was a costermonger.

Mary Kellys two mens dirty shirts . Joe Barnetts and another man named Joe .

[FISHY1118]

It seems likely that Maria Harvey had a six-year-old son at the time.

Where does that seem likely ?