MJK pregnancy

[MrBarnett]

Hi Mrs. Fiddymont

one might also mention Dr. Killeen's finding about Martha Tabram:


Ouch, I bet that stung the young doctor!

Especially since he had only recently left a position in a maternity hospital in Dublin.

[FISHY1118]

FWIW I believe Miller's Court was a misdirection event. The purpose of which was to remove Kelly out of London and that another was killed in her place. The mutilations of Kelly were functional as were the murder themselves. I'm sure Kelly, JTR (Blotchy?) and Astrakhan were all connected. I'm fully in on the conspiracy/cover up angle. What can I say?

The course of events is complicated by subsequent press reports that, although self-admittedly unconfirmed, tell a remarkable story. The Herts. and Cambs. reporter on 16.11. gives the following details of the events of the 8th/9th November:

"She had a little boy, ''aged about six or seven years'', living with her, and latterly her circumstances had been so reduced that she is reported to have stated to a companion that she would make away with herself, as she could not bear to see her boy starving ....a man who is described as respectably dressed, came up and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man accompanied the woman to her lodgings, which are on the second floor, the little boy being sent to a neighbour's house. Nothing more was seen of the woman. On Friday morning, it is stated, the little boy was sent back into the house, and the report goes that he was sent out subsequently on an errand by the man who was in the house with his mother. Confirmation of this statement is, it is true, difficult to obtain, and it remains in doubt whether anyone really saw the unfortunate woman on the morning of the discovery."

The Hertfordshire Mercury on the 10.11 also suggests that there was someone else in Kelly's room, but "there is no evidence as to who was in the house with her."

The Herts. Advertiser & St. Albans Times on 10.11 describes Kelly's son as around 10-11 years of age and adds: "The story of the crime current among the neighbours is that this morning - what time cannot at present be ascertained, but at any rate after daylight - she took a man home to her own room, presumably for an immoral purpose."


Is there anyway it can be confimed that Mary Jane Kelly had a son ? .

[MrBarnett]

It seems likely that Maria Harvey had a six-year-old son at the time.

[FISHY1118]

It seems likely that Maria Harvey had a six-year-old son at the time.

Where does that seem likely ?

[FISHY1118]

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.
[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts, a little boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet with black satin strings, a pawn-ticket for a grey shawl, upon which 2s had been lent, and a little girls white petticoat.
[Coroner] Have you seen any of these articles since? - Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon.
[Coroner] Did the deceased ever speak to you about being afraid of any man ? - She did not.



I take that as Maria left with Mary Kellys two mens Dirty shirts and a Little boys shirt


Julia Vanturney [Van Turney], 1, Miller's-court, a charwoman, living with Harry Owen, said: I knew the deceased for some time as Kelly, and I knew Joe Barnett, who lived with her. He would not allow her to go on the streets. Deceased often got drunk. She said she was fond of another man, also named Joe. I never saw this man. I believe he was a costermonger.

Mary Kellys two mens dirty shirts . Joe Barnetts and another man named Joe .

[MrBarnett]

Where does that seem likely ?

Debra found a workhouse record of a washerwoman named Maria Harvey who had two sons, one, John, born in 1882 and the other, William, born in 1884. Her address was in Station Place, a narrow street of brothels near Shadwell Station which can be linked to 79, Pennington Street.

The press report and London Hospital admission record below refer to a John Harvey, aged 6 who was involved in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888. His address is given as 2, Dorset Court, but may have been 2, Miller’s Court or 2, New Court.

I’ve searched high and low for an alternative Maria Harvey with no success.



London Hospital Admission Record

Accident No.: 2
Patient's name: John Harvey
Residence: 2, Dorset Court, Com[mercia]l St, Whitechapel
Age and Civil State: 6
Occupation: School
By whom recommended: -
Ward: 2V [?unclear]
Case: Contusions(run over)
Surgeon: [Frederick] Treves
Time of Discharge: June 6 1888
Days in hospital: 4
[Patient marked as "Cured"]

[Abby Normal]

The course of events is complicated by subsequent press reports that, although self-admittedly unconfirmed, tell a remarkable story. The Herts. and Cambs. reporter on 16.11. gives the following details of the events of the 8th/9th November:

"She had a little boy, ''aged about six or seven years'', living with her, and latterly her circumstances had been so reduced that she is reported to have stated to a companion that she would make away with herself, as she could not bear to see her boy starving ....a man who is described as respectably dressed, came up and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man accompanied the woman to her lodgings, which are on the second floor, the little boy being sent to a neighbour's house. Nothing more was seen of the woman. On Friday morning, it is stated, the little boy was sent back into the house, and the report goes that he was sent out subsequently on an errand by the man who was in the house with his mother. Confirmation of this statement is, it is true, difficult to obtain, and it remains in doubt whether anyone really saw the unfortunate woman on the morning of the discovery."

The Hertfordshire Mercury on the 10.11 also suggests that there was someone else in Kelly's room, but "there is no evidence as to who was in the house with her."

The Herts. Advertiser & St. Albans Times on 10.11 describes Kelly's son as around 10-11 years of age and adds: "The story of the crime current among the neighbours is that this morning - what time cannot at present be ascertained, but at any rate after daylight - she took a man home to her own room, presumably for an immoral purpose."


Is there anyway it can be confimed that Mary Jane Kelly had a son ? .

she didnt have a son. the article was wrong and even states its unreliable. perhaps it was a mix up with Maria Harveys son.

[Abby Normal]

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.
[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts, a little boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet with black satin strings, a pawn-ticket for a grey shawl, upon which 2s had been lent, and a little girls white petticoat.
[Coroner] Have you seen any of these articles since? - Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon.
[Coroner] Did the deceased ever speak to you about being afraid of any man ? - She did not.



I take that as Maria left with Mary Kellys two mens Dirty shirts and a Little boys shirt


Julia Vanturney [Van Turney], 1, Miller's-court, a charwoman, living with Harry Owen, said: I knew the deceased for some time as Kelly, and I knew Joe Barnett, who lived with her. He would not allow her to go on the streets. Deceased often got drunk. She said she was fond of another man, also named Joe. I never saw this man. I believe he was a costermonger.

Mary Kellys two mens dirty shirts . Joe Barnetts and another man named Joe .

i think Maria Harvey left Mary with those items of clothes, not that she took them from mary

[MrBarnett]

This is from one of the admission records of Maria Harvey and her two sons into the Raine Street workhouse on 27th April, 1887. She was recorded as a destitute widowed washerwoman and her address was shown as 18, Station Place.


I’m keeping my fingers tightly crossed that Debs or one of the others in the A-Z team have found out more about Maria Harvey.

[MrBarnett]

I should add that Station Place shared the honour of being described as the worst street in London with Dorset Street.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/victoriana/the-east-end-of-london/31497-station-place-shadwell

[C. F. Leon]

"Today, I believe the term gravidity can be used to specify the number of children a woman has had." Quote mine.

Correction: the term Gravida refers to the number of pregnancies a woman's had. Gravida plus the number.

The freedictionary gives a date of around 1925 for the term but 1880 for the use of para as in primipara or multipara.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gravida

The gist of the thread is really about why he didn't take the uterus away with him. But, now that the technical terms are clear, I think we can agree that the dead woman was not pregnant at the time she was killed.

Nowadays in Biology we use "gravid" to refer to egg-laying animals with developing eggs, "pregnant" is reserved for live-birthing mammals- a bird may be gravid, never pregnant; a cow or mouse is pregnant and you may talk about their "Gravida".

"Gravid" may well have been used rather than "pregnant" by a Victorian doctor as a more technical term than pregnancy, which may have been reserved for later stages (3rd trimester, for instance), or perhaps just general reluctance to use a "vulgar" term.

[Joshua Rogan]

The press report and London Hospital admission record below refer to a John Harvey, aged 6 who was involved in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888.

Surely not that maniac Cross again?

[MrBarnett]

Surely not that maniac Cross again?

Could be… ;-)

[FISHY1118]

Debra found a workhouse record of a washerwoman named Maria Harvey who had two sons, one, John, born in 1882 and the other, William, born in 1884. Her address was in Station Place, a narrow street of brothels near Shadwell Station which can be linked to 79, Pennington Street.

The press report and London Hospital admission record below refer to a John Harvey, aged 6 who was involved in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888. His address is given as 2, Dorset Court, but may have been 2, Miller’s Court or 2, New Court.

I’ve searched high and low for an alternative Maria Harvey with no success.



London Hospital Admission Record

Accident No.: 2
Patient's name: John Harvey
Residence: 2, Dorset Court, Com[mercia]l St, Whitechapel
Age and Civil State: 6
Occupation: School
By whom recommended: -
Ward: 2V [?unclear]
Case: Contusions(run over)
Surgeon: [Frederick] Treves
Time of Discharge: June 6 1888
Days in hospital: 4
[Patient marked as "Cured"]

Thanks for the post B , But still it doesnt discount Kelly from having a six year old child of her own as well does it? . Especially this part of that report

She had a little boy, ''aged about six or seven years'', ''living with her''! ...Why would Maria Harveys son be living with a Known Prostitute named Mary
Kelly?





''As she could not bare to see ''her'' boy starving'' .... Again, a reference that suggest it was her boy not Maria Harveys

[FISHY1118]

she didnt have a son. the article was wrong and even states its unreliable. perhaps it was a mix up with Maria Harveys son.

Hi Abby , It only states that ''Confirmation, if its true would be difficult to obtain'' , So i wouldnt goes as far as to say it was flat out wrong.

How many posters here of late have used press reports that are ''Not Proven'' to make a point ? Saying that, im not a big fan of the press . Only that im researching this perticular point re Kellys child away from Casebook where ive found a Reference to kelly indeed having a child ,which a certian Ripperoligist has researched that didnt come from the Report i posted .

So in short, now i have found two different/ separate references to a Kelly child . What will happen when and if there is a 3rd orf 4th ? Makes for an interesting topic . Cheers Fishy

See my above response posted to mr B about a mix up with maria harveys boy.