Mary Kelly at Salvation Army Meeting

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mark

In those days it was rare to attend church and especially in the East End, so keep this in mind when thinking about life in the Nineteenth Century.

This was something which I think may've been undertaking a change either at this time or shortly after...

My late mother, (daughter and grandaughter of docker/coster partnerships, and one of the later persons born in the Workhouse), attended an RC-sponsored school in St George in the East in the 1930s, and claimed to have been caned or strapped if she turned up on Monday mornings having not attended church on the Sunday...

Some of her siblings have confirmed to me, at various times down the years, that this was the case, and indeed continued to be, until at least WWll...this family may or may not be a typical example...I don't know...

Either there was a significant change of attitude "somewhen" or you are perhaps over-generalising...knowing the eccentricities within my family, I'm personally giving you the benefit of the doubt,(!), but also, knowing, at first hand, the strength of Irish RC traditions, and the sort of dumb obstinate willpower which allowed my mother to reject them, then I do have to question your certainty...

All the very best

Dave

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I was a little surprised myself, Rosella, that Mary went to a Salvation Army service on a Sunday morning. But the only Catholic organization she's ever been linked to is the Provenance Row Night Refuge run by nuns.

James J Cooke was also Irish. http://jamaica-gleaner.com/pages/history/story0075.html

London's East End poor had to be at the Sunday morning service if they wanted a free breakfast from the Salvation Army.

[markmorey5]

The likelihood is that Mary Kelly would have been a Roman Catholic, she was certainly given a Roman Catholic funeral. Did she ever visit a priest for confession or attend a service?

In those days it was rare to attend church and especially in the East End, so keep this in mind when thinking about life in the Nineteenth Century. In fact life had different moral standards to what came later, and another example are the large numbers of couples who lived together without getting married. That was very common.

[GUT]

I don't think we can take her RC status as a given...Whilst it's generally well known that there is a strong protestant movement in Northern Ireland, it's perhaps less well known that there existed in the South (and still does) the Church of Ireland, as an alternative to the Roman Catholic faith...in fact it was the de facto state recognised church until 1871. As I've commented elsewhere it had in the mid to late 19th century, a substantial membership in the Limerick area...

I suspect the Roman Catholic funeral was an assumption, possibly unfounded, possibly not...

I have also wondered if Joe was a Catholic. Many partners who are uncertain will pick their own religion for a burial. Perhaps simply because when distraught they turn to the comfortable.

[MayBea]

Here's a similar report about Catherine Eddowes attending a London City Mission service on Sundays.
A missionary is mentioned. Perhaps this is the one who would later talk about Mary Kelly.

The City Press (London)
Wednesday, 7 November 1888

In two reports of the London City Mission issued this week, additional light is thrown upon the condition of the people in the neighbourhood where the East-end atrocities were committed. The Flower-and-Dean-street report says:- "All the victims lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging-houses situated within its boundaries. Some were well known to the missionary, especially the Mitre-square victim, who had on previous Sundays attended the service held by the missionary in one of the lodging-houses."

http:http://www.casebook.org/press_r...p881107.html//

[Cogidubnus]

The likelihood is that Mary Kelly would have been a Roman Catholic, she was certainly given a Roman Catholic funeral. Did she ever visit a priest for confession or attend a service?

I don't think we can take her RC status as a given...Whilst it's generally well known that there is a strong protestant movement in Northern Ireland, it's perhaps less well known that there existed in the South (and still does) the Church of Ireland, as an alternative to the Roman Catholic faith...in fact it was the de facto state recognised church until 1871. As I've commented elsewhere it had in the mid to late 19th century, a substantial membership in the Limerick area...

I suspect the Roman Catholic funeral was an assumption, possibly unfounded, possibly not...

[MayBea]

I think it's a real story of a real moment. I know the SA was out to raise funds but the sheer honesty of the man reporting comes out clearly in the appeal.

It also matches up with the newspaper report of the City Missionary who described Mary quite nicely.

The only problem is it's been pointed out to me that the term "City Missionary" was used only or primarily for the men and women of the London City Mission. It was not used for soldiers of the Salvation Army.

I don't know if the newspapers would differentiate. Both organizations worked together on the "Midnight Meetings Movement" that targeted prostitutes.

[Jon Guy]

Agreed!

I was just making the point that we should remember that they were more than just names in a police file

Agreed :-)

[barnflatwyngarde]

What about the other six girls in the Jack the Ripper police files?
We need to celebrate what we know about them too.

Agreed!

I was just making the point that we should remember that they were more than just names in a police file

[lynn cates]

apochryphal

Hello All. It may be unwise to put too much weight on what may be an apochryphal story.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

It is these little human interactions which help us to remember that these women were not the "canonical five", but real people with all the fears, loves and frailties which we all have.

What about the other six girls in the Jack the Ripper police files?
We need to celebrate what we know about them too.

[Lechmere]

Because it sounds more dramatic

[barnflatwyngarde]

Anything which helps to see any of the victims in a more human light is to be welcomed.

It is these little human interactions which help us to remember that these women were not the "canonical five", but real people with all the fears, loves and frailties which we all have.

[RockySullivan]

hi...what is it that makes this guy think a salvation army worker killed MJK? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-East-End.html

why a woman SA worker and not a male one?

[GUT]

G'day Rosella

It's a bit sad if true that many poor people went to their meetings for the soup and cups of tea offered afterwards. Still, only human nature, I suppose.

It still happens I'm afraid.

Even sadder is my Doctor tells me he has patients that only come in because they are lonely and need a chat. [They should join Casebook].