Mary Kelly at Salvation Army Meeting

[Jon Guy]

Agreed!

I was just making the point that we should remember that they were more than just names in a police file

Agreed :-)

[MayBea]

I think it's a real story of a real moment. I know the SA was out to raise funds but the sheer honesty of the man reporting comes out clearly in the appeal.

It also matches up with the newspaper report of the City Missionary who described Mary quite nicely.

The only problem is it's been pointed out to me that the term "City Missionary" was used only or primarily for the men and women of the London City Mission. It was not used for soldiers of the Salvation Army.

I don't know if the newspapers would differentiate. Both organizations worked together on the "Midnight Meetings Movement" that targeted prostitutes.

[Cogidubnus]

The likelihood is that Mary Kelly would have been a Roman Catholic, she was certainly given a Roman Catholic funeral. Did she ever visit a priest for confession or attend a service?

I don't think we can take her RC status as a given...Whilst it's generally well known that there is a strong protestant movement in Northern Ireland, it's perhaps less well known that there existed in the South (and still does) the Church of Ireland, as an alternative to the Roman Catholic faith...in fact it was the de facto state recognised church until 1871. As I've commented elsewhere it had in the mid to late 19th century, a substantial membership in the Limerick area...

I suspect the Roman Catholic funeral was an assumption, possibly unfounded, possibly not...

[MayBea]

Here's a similar report about Catherine Eddowes attending a London City Mission service on Sundays.
A missionary is mentioned. Perhaps this is the one who would later talk about Mary Kelly.

The City Press (London)
Wednesday, 7 November 1888

In two reports of the London City Mission issued this week, additional light is thrown upon the condition of the people in the neighbourhood where the East-end atrocities were committed. The Flower-and-Dean-street report says:- "All the victims lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging-houses situated within its boundaries. Some were well known to the missionary, especially the Mitre-square victim, who had on previous Sundays attended the service held by the missionary in one of the lodging-houses."

http:http://www.casebook.org/press_r...p881107.html//

[GUT]

I don't think we can take her RC status as a given...Whilst it's generally well known that there is a strong protestant movement in Northern Ireland, it's perhaps less well known that there existed in the South (and still does) the Church of Ireland, as an alternative to the Roman Catholic faith...in fact it was the de facto state recognised church until 1871. As I've commented elsewhere it had in the mid to late 19th century, a substantial membership in the Limerick area...

I suspect the Roman Catholic funeral was an assumption, possibly unfounded, possibly not...

I have also wondered if Joe was a Catholic. Many partners who are uncertain will pick their own religion for a burial. Perhaps simply because when distraught they turn to the comfortable.

[markmorey5]

The likelihood is that Mary Kelly would have been a Roman Catholic, she was certainly given a Roman Catholic funeral. Did she ever visit a priest for confession or attend a service?

In those days it was rare to attend church and especially in the East End, so keep this in mind when thinking about life in the Nineteenth Century. In fact life had different moral standards to what came later, and another example are the large numbers of couples who lived together without getting married. That was very common.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I was a little surprised myself, Rosella, that Mary went to a Salvation Army service on a Sunday morning. But the only Catholic organization she's ever been linked to is the Provenance Row Night Refuge run by nuns.

James J Cooke was also Irish. http://jamaica-gleaner.com/pages/history/story0075.html

London's East End poor had to be at the Sunday morning service if they wanted a free breakfast from the Salvation Army.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mark

In those days it was rare to attend church and especially in the East End, so keep this in mind when thinking about life in the Nineteenth Century.

This was something which I think may've been undertaking a change either at this time or shortly after...

My late mother, (daughter and grandaughter of docker/coster partnerships, and one of the later persons born in the Workhouse), attended an RC-sponsored school in St George in the East in the 1930s, and claimed to have been caned or strapped if she turned up on Monday mornings having not attended church on the Sunday...

Some of her siblings have confirmed to me, at various times down the years, that this was the case, and indeed continued to be, until at least WWll...this family may or may not be a typical example...I don't know...

Either there was a significant change of attitude "somewhen" or you are perhaps over-generalising...knowing the eccentricities within my family, I'm personally giving you the benefit of the doubt,(!), but also, knowing, at first hand, the strength of Irish RC traditions, and the sort of dumb obstinate willpower which allowed my mother to reject them, then I do have to question your certainty...

All the very best

Dave

[markmorey5]

Census statistics compared to church attendances put the rate at about 30%. Church attendance became more common in the 20th Century when they had more leisure time.

[MayBea]

It might be interesting to see how far she'd have to go to attend the SA Sunday service.

Using the Charles Booth online archive, I found only one lodging house in Whitechapel being used by the Salvation Army for services.

SALVATION ARMY LIGHTHOUSE LODGING HOUSE QUAKER STREET

Quaker St. is just north of Hanbury Street so it would have been only a short walk from Millers Court - a quarter mile at most.

[Archaic]

Moral Lessons

Hello All. It may be unwise to put too much weight on what may be an apochryphal story.

Hi Lynn. I agree.

According to Peter Stubley's book '1888: London in the Year of the Ripper', the quote from the Salvation Army newspaper, 'The War Cry': "Of course we are taking advantage of this terror, and are doing our utmost to bring the people to repentance. A few are getting saved. It was so sad to hear of the last murdered woman - Kelly - that she was quite recently on a Sunday morning in a lodging house where Capt Walker and her lieutenant were holding a meeting and sang from the same hymn book as the captain. Alas! She did not get saved. " was actually an 'appeal' from one of Booth's staff members, James J. Cooke.

Cook was making a desperate appeal to help more East Enders save their souls by turning away from immoral lives and towards God and the Salvation Army. He even says, "we are doing our utmost to take advantage of this terror."

In the 1880s, when Yellow Journalism was the norm, it's not surprising to find apocryphal stories such as this. It was exceedingly common for everyone, ministers, newspaper editors, etc. to seek "moral lessons" within current events.

That's not to say that Booth and Cooke didn't truly wish to "save" people, but simply clarifying that their primary goal was saving souls from Eternal Damnation, not objectively reporting factual news!

Their paper is called 'War Cry' for a reason. All is fair in Love and War, especially a 'War' against Satan.

Mary might have been at the meeting and she might not have been. Perhaps Mary sang hymns with Captain Walker; perhaps not. What we do know is that Booth and Cooke are using the murder of Mary Kelly to deliver a dramatic moral lesson - that she was almost saved from her "life of sin" by the Salvation Army, but unfortunately didn't fully "repent" and change her ways, so died a horrible death at the hands of Jack the Ripper.

It seems to me that if Mary Kelly was actually known to be at the Salvation Army meeting signing hymns shortly before she was murdered that would have been a journalist's dream story and it would have appeared in multiple newspapers, not just the Salvation Army's 'War Cry.'

Does anybody know of any other such reports?

Best regards,
Archaic

[MayBea]

The only other reports are attributed to the London City Missionary, now identified as Charles Pateman. This would be a first-hand witness report.


Daily News
United Kingdom
12 November 1888

I knew the poor girl who has just been killed... We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued.

The LCM was established by a number of Protestant denominations so it looks like Mary had no aversion to Protestantism.

I think the question of where to go on Sunday morning might hinge on travel distance, if the SA location happens to be closer.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mark

In those days it was rare to attend church and especially in the East End, so keep this in mind when thinking about life in the Nineteenth Century.

Census statistics compared to church attendances put the rate at about 30%. Church attendance became more common in the 20th Century when they had more leisure time

I'm afraid I wouldn't discount 30% church attendance as "rare"...ok I understand there just might (and I emphasise that "might") be a difference between what was a reasonable batting average among the emerging middle classes in the more respectable areas, and the East End working classes....but even halve that 30% for the poorer East End...and even 15% isn't "rare"...

This is not to say I altogether accept that religious observance was necessarily scarcer in the East End...then as now, I'd guess many poorer Irish RCs were more observant, in a general sense, than their better-off CofE equivalents, (nearly all my ancestors from this period have Latin Birth/Baptism certificates), and observance among many of the Jewish faith must have been what kept the synagogues going so long...so if a third or a quarter of the population were religious observers, surely attendance can't really be described as rare?

The situation today, in the UK at least, could perhaps be described as rare...but probably not then...

All the best

Dave

[jason_c]

Hi Mark





I'm afraid I wouldn't discount 30% church attendance as "rare"...ok I understand there just might (and I emphasise that "might") be a difference between what was a reasonable batting average among the emerging middle classes in the more respectable areas, and the East End working classes....but even halve that 30% for the poorer East End...and even 15% isn't "rare"...

This is not to say I altogether accept that religious observance was necessarily scarcer in the East End...then as now, I'd guess many poorer Irish RCs were more observant, in a general sense, than their better-off CofE equivalents, (nearly all my ancestors from this period have Latin Birth/Baptism certificates), and observance among many of the Jewish faith must have been what kept the synagogues going so long...so if a third or a quarter of the population were religious observers, surely attendance can't really be described as rare?

The situation today, in the UK at least, could perhaps be described as rare...but probably not then...

All the best

Dave

I agree with much of this. It must be remembered we are talking of an East End prostitute. A woman who was under no pressure from her family to attend any specific Church service. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Kelly took her spiritual wellbeing from whomever was offering it. If that organisation was the Salvation Army then so be it, especially if that organisation was offering food/shelter/companionship or a sing song.

I also assume the Salvation Army took care of many non Protestants. Non Protestants may have been underepresented at SA gatherings but I doubt they were rare.

[GUT]

I agree with much of this. It must be remembered we are talking of an East End prostitute. A woman who was under no pressure from her family to attend any specific Church service. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Kelly took her spiritual wellbeing from whomever was offering it. If that organisation was the Salvation Army then so be it, especially if that organisation was offering food/shelter/companionship or a sing song.

I also assume the Salvation Army took care of many non Protestants. Non Protestants may have been underepresented at SA gatherings but I doubt they were rare.

I'd go a step further and say that I wouldn't be surprised if she took her spiritual wellbeing from whoever assisted with her physical wellbeing.