How Drunk Was Mary?

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Surely we have to take the statements of witnesses who came forward of their own free will on some kind of trust? If we're going to dismiss all of the uncorroborated ones we are going to be left with Lechmere, Lawende and ....um!

That's why I think Schwartz is telling the truth, but this is for another thread.

[Ben]

Hi Batman,

Yes, Kennedy was discredited.

She had evidently spoken to Sarah Lewis at some point, and passed the latter's story off as her own. Fortunately, her antics were spotted in time for the inquest, which is why she did not appear at it.

All the best,
Ben

[Batman]

What about Kennedy though? Is her story discredited?

Isn't blotchy face basically syphilis treatment from salts or something?

[Ben]

Surely we have to take the statements of witnesses who came forward of their own free will on some kind of trust?

Indeed, until we're given a reason to mistrust, as we are in Hutchinson's case.

In the wake of "later investigations" conducted by the authorities, the account suffered a "very reduced importance" short after its initial appearance. Yes, he came forward of his "own free will", but only after three crucial days since the murder had elapsed, and apparently only in response to the evidence of Sarah Lewis - aired publicly at the inquest - which described a man loitering opposite Miller's Court on the night of the murder, seemingly monitoring its entrance, just as Hutchinson himself claimed to have done.

Short of the grossly unrealistic "freak coincidence" explanation, it is clear that Hutchinson came forward because he realised he'd been seen.

As for Cox, another newspaper which noted that Hutchinson's account was "now discredited", made the following observation:

"As we have already said, the only piece of information of any value which has yet transpired is the description given by the widow Cox of a man - short, stout, with a blotchy face and a carroty moustache - who at midnight on Thursday went with the murdered woman into her room."

[Batman]

The police surgeon's opinion was that the injuries could not have been inflicted in less than two hours but (for obvious reasons!) nobody has ever tried to duplicate them against the clock, so who knows? I know a master joiner who thought that, using a draw knife, the external injuries could have been inflicted in seconds.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7595&page=69

[Rosella]

Surely we have to take the statements of witnesses who came forward of their own free will on some kind of trust? If we're going to dismiss all of the uncorroborated ones we are going to be left with Lechmere, Lawende and ....um!

[Wickerman]

Not that stupid if he got away with it!

Seriously though, I think JTR was in the midst of a murderous rage.
When he got so close to his goal of murdering a woman, I don't think the fact that he was seen would have stopped him.

If he was not concerned about being seen, then we are at a loss to explain why no murders through October, while police & Vigilance activity was at its height.

All this talk about Blotchy is avoiding the fact that Cox's story was never substantiated. And no pub or beerhouse provided confirmation that Kelly was seen with such a man prior to midnight.

So much weight is being given to a story that was never corroborated by anyone. And, if police are said to have lost interest in Hutchinson after the 12th, then why is no-one concerned about the apparent loss of police interest in Cox at the same time?

The answer is, of course, it was not the police who lost interest in either witness, but the press.

[Bridewell]

Put simply, I am asking why on earth would Kelly wander back out in the early hours of a cold damp morning when she had clearly been very intoxicated shortly before?

I guess she might go out if she had been asleep for a while, had no idea how long she had slept for and wanted to know what time it was. That's not the most likely explanation but I doubt if she owned a clock or a watch.

[Bridewell]

I've read it through several times over the years. Yes it was very detailed, but Abberline, a very experienced policeman, believed Hutchinson.

And documented that belief. If he documented a retraction it doesn't survive. Abberline, who had worked the area for many years, knew 19th century Whitechapel better than we ever can. Thanks, Rosella.

[Bridewell]

Good question. I am puzzled about these two sightings but Lewis could not have possibly seen Mary at 10 am. She was found dead 45 minutes later.

The police surgeon's opinion was that the injuries could not have been inflicted in less than two hours but (for obvious reasons!) nobody has ever tried to duplicate them against the clock, so who knows? I know a master joiner who thought that, using a draw knife, the external injuries could have been inflicted in seconds.

[Robert]

Hi Barn

But apparently he was so angry that he sat through a cabaret of 'Only A Violet' and doubtless other songs, and ended up murdering her, if you go by the majority opinion, at 4AM?

[barnflatwyngarde]

She also said "I noticed she was drunk as I said goodnight.".

In other words, as detailed in both the Daily Telegraph & the Standard, she did not notice Kelly was drunk until she turned to speak.
"...I did not notice she was drunk until she said good night..."

Which means Kelly was not so drunk that she was staggering or falling against the passage walls.
Cox was following behind so it was not obvious to Cox that Kelly was drunk by her walk.

The Foreman. - Should you know the man again if you saw him?
Witness. - Oh, yes, I should.

Do you really think this Blotchy is going to murder Kelly when he was seen close up and face-to-face by Kelly's neighbor, Mrs Cox?

Wouldn't that be a stupid thing to do?

Not that stupid if he got away with it!

Seriously though, I think JTR was in the midst of a murderous rage.
When he got so close to his goal of murdering a woman, I don't think the fact that he was seen would have stopped him.

[Wickerman]

Bear in mind that Mrs Cox described Mary as being "very much intoxicated".

She also said "I noticed she was drunk as I said goodnight.".

In other words, as detailed in both the Daily Telegraph & the Standard, she did not notice Kelly was drunk until she turned to speak.
"...I did not notice she was drunk until she said good night..."

Which means Kelly was not so drunk that she was staggering or falling against the passage walls.
Cox was following behind so it was not obvious to Cox that Kelly was drunk by her walk.

The Foreman. - Should you know the man again if you saw him?
Witness. - Oh, yes, I should.

Do you really think this Blotchy is going to murder Kelly when he was seen close up and face-to-face by Kelly's neighbor, Mrs Cox?

Wouldn't that be a stupid thing to do?

[Wickerman]

This begs the question did Jack drink with his victims prior to murdering them?

The pubs closed at 12:30 am, Nichols was murdered about 3:30 am, and Chapman, likely around 5:30 am.
The pubs were long shut when Eddowes was released.

[Wickerman]

Interesting that Hutch never said anything about Mary being drunk, or perhaps starting a hangover. Since she could barely spit out goodnight to Mary Ann at almost 12, one would think 2 or 3 hours later she would still exhibit some indication of being that drunk at that time.

Yes Michael, that is what "spreeish" means, she had apparently not waved off the drink by 2:00 am.

What is most problematic about Hutch is the fact that he claimed to be friends with Mary yet waited 4 full days and for the closure of the Inquest until he gives us his story....after Sarah Lewis's Wideawake Hat man was common knowledge.

That last point is a little misleading Michael.

Sarah's testimony only became common knowledge the next day, on the 13th. Her testimony was reported in the late Evening papers on the 12th, but that was after 6:00 pm, after Hutchinson went to the police.
The Star was the earliest local evening paper to come out with inquest coverage but did not carry anything about Sarah Lewis, the Star's coverage ended with Mrs Praters testimony.
Nothing in the Star about Sarah Lewis on the evening of the 12th.

Sarah Lewis's testimony was not common knowledge before Hutchinson walked into Commercial St. police station.