How Drunk Was Mary?

[Rosella]

Ive read it through several times over the years. Yes it was very detailed, but Abberline, a very experienced policeman, believed Hutchinson.

[Amanda Sumner]

I don't think Hutchinson's behaviour was so bizarre. He obviously knew Mary, fancied her and had been her client a few times.

He didn't have any money to give her on that particular night, but he hung around outside Miller's Court IMO in the hope that Astrakhan man would go after an hour or so and then Mary, tipsy and well-paid from her client might take pity on him on a cold damp night and invite him in for a freebie in her nice warm bed.

Not everything has to have a sinister intent. He probably hung about in the cold and then, with nothing moving in Millers Court, walked away thinking "Oh well, when I get some money...."

That is one interpretation but why the elaborate description of a person who just would not have been there. Anyone with a gold chain in full view, easily seen in the dim street light, after two in the morning would have been lynched.
This man, imo, did not exist outside of Hutchinson's imagination.
Had Sarah not seen or described him at all, we would never have heard of a Mr Hutchinson. If you read his statement through, I think it's very bizarre.

[Rosella]

I don't think Hutchinson's behaviour was so bizarre. He obviously knew Mary, fancied her and had been her client a few times.

He didn't have any money to give her on that particular night, but he hung around outside Miller's Court IMO in the hope that Astrakhan man would go after an hour or so and then Mary, tipsy and well-paid from her client might take pity on him on a cold damp night and invite him in for a freebie in her nice warm bed.

Not everything has to have a sinister intent. He probably hung about in the cold and then, with nothing moving in Millers Court, walked away thinking "Oh well, when I get some money...."

[Amanda Sumner]

If any/all these witnesses were themselves heavy drinkers or alcoholics it's surely possible that a lot of things that they reported to the police and the press would be fuzzy in their memories and just plain muddled.

In some cases, yes. However, alcohol played such a large part of the lives in the Eastend that we would have absolutely nothing to go on if we dismiss all the witness statements on those grounds. The police dismissed Lewis's statement because it was so far fetched, but Maxwell's statement was heard at the inquest and it was decided that she was obviously mistaken because Kelly had been dead, in the opinion of the doctors, much earlier than 8.30.am
I find it odd that Hutchinson's statement was not treated with more suspicion, instead it seems to have been accepted and he is sent on his way.
Why did he feel he had to come forward at all? To try and get money from it? Have his turn in the limelight?
I find his behaviour very odd on the night of Kelly's murder and his statement even more bizarre.

[Rosella]

If any/all these witnesses were themselves heavy drinkers or alcoholics it's surely possible that a lot of things that they reported to the police and the press would be fuzzy in their memories and just plain muddled.

[Amanda Sumner]

Well why wasn't Mrs Cox's and/or Mrs Prater's day mixed up?

Good question. I am puzzled about these two sightings but Lewis could not have possibly seen Mary at 10 am. She was found dead 45 minutes later.

Maxwell's story is odd. I think it must have been another morning because I cannot imagine the killer performing those atrocities in broad daylight with the risk of being easily discovered.

Also, when the room was broken into and the body was examined, rigor mortis was very marked, which suggested that it was well over 6 hours since she had died, maybe twice that.
It's a shame that the inquest did not give us a time of death, or we knew when Mary had eaten her last meal. It is my opinion that she died within 2 hours of eating that meal.

[GUT]

Not inconvenient, just that the days were muddled up. She had been dead for a long time by the time they got into that little room.

Amanda

Well why wasn't Mrs Cox's and/or Mrs Prater's day mixed up?

[Amanda Sumner]

Amazing how everyone says no one else saw her, what about Maurice Lewis and Mrs Maxwell, I know that many people want to dismiss them but in Ripperland many want to dismiss anyone or anything that is inconvenient.

Not inconvenient, just that the days were muddled up. She had been dead for a long time by the time they got into that little room.

Amanda

[Amanda Sumner]

Also why does Joe say they separated?


What does her death certificate give as occupation?

He did not like her out on the street, and he objected to the women that stayed in their room.
The death certificate said "Prostitute"

Amanda

[GUT]

Amazing how everyone says no one else saw her, what about Maurice Lewis and Mrs Maxwell, I know that many people want to dismiss them but in Ripperland many want to dismiss anyone or anything that is inconvenient.

[Amanda Sumner]

Do we have a reliable description of George Hutchinson? Apart from stocky and had a military bearing?
The man described by Cox was stocky also...
I have often wondered what Hutchinson was doing there, lurking about outside Miller's Court. We only have his word that Mary went out again, no one else saw her.
Sarah Lewis saw him, and he had to come up with a reason why he was there, hence his rather elaborate description of a man that, in my opinion, was a figment of his imagination.
Could Hutchinson have been Mary's killer? After all, we only have his word that he was hanging around. What if he had just left Miller's Court when he was seen? Sarah said it was between 2.am an 3.am that she saw him.
Mary had eaten fish and potato that night and the food was still recognisable in her stomach. That suggests to me that she died within two hours of eating that meal, certainly not very long after.
Hutchinson may well have been leaving, and was not hanging around at all.
Three o'clock Mary's room was quiet and dark, no obvious roaring fire...
I think she was already dead by then and maybe Hutchinson was the murderer.
Odd how he disappeared so soon after his statement.

[GUT]

Also why does Joe say they separated?


What does her death certificate give as occupation?

[Bridewell]

There is only one account of Mary ever bringing a man other than Barnett to her room

There is more than one account: Mrs Cox's 'Blotchy Face' and Hutchinson's 'Astrakhan Man'. Regardless of whether or not you consider both accounts to be credible, the fact remains that there are two accounts, not one.

Also, there is only one night in her life about which anyone was ever questioned. Your use of the word 'ever' needs to be viewed in that light.

[GUT]

A good friend of mine was married to someone who could cut a picture mount perfectly when drunk but couldn't do it half as well when he was sober.

I don't doubt that for one minute. I knew a truck driver who couldn't get his truck in the shed sober, but drunk perfect about 99% of the time, take a wall out the other 1%.

[Bridewell]

I know some very high functioning alcoholics, I have seen Barristers run criminal trials while drunk, I have seen a watch maker rebuild a watch, when he could barely talk. Many people have no grasp of how efficiently an alcoholic can operate even when drunk.

A good friend of mine was married to someone who could cut a picture mount perfectly when drunk but couldn't do it half as well when he was sober.