Miller's Court Sun/Shadow Study

[richardh]

Over the past week or so I have been studying MJK1 in an attempt to establish what time of the day MJK1 photograph was taken. I've written the experiment up on my blog. There's quite a bit to read which is why I haven't posted it all on this thread. But you can read it HERE

I might put it all into a YouTube video at some point.

I'd appreciate your suggestions and feedback etc.

thanks

R

[Wickerman]

Again, well done Richard.

[GUT]

Well done Richard, now I've got think.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

This work has impressed me and your knowledge of camera work and light combined has, like GUT, got me thinking.

Many thanks

Phil

[GUT]

G'day Richard

I know a little about photography and almost nothing about computer modelling.

Have you tried including a floodlight?

Also could the above the doorway arch be a result of "burning in" during printing, personally I doubt it, but it's just a thought.

Flash isn't out of the question, but it would have been a mercury taper I suspect and I doubt that it would produce that we are seeing.

[Phil Carter]

Flash isn't out of the question, but it would have been a mercury taper I suspect and I doubt that it would produce that we are seeing.

Hello GUT,

Just as a thought- would there be any effect concerning any amount of time in the producton of the print from glass plate and the conditions under developing said print itself?

kind regards

Phil

[GUT]

Hello GUT,

Just as a thought- would there be any effect concerning any amount of time in the producton of the print from glass plate and the conditions under developing said print itself?

kind regards

Phil

G'day Phil

I doubt that degradation of the plate would be the cause. But I have seen some unexpected things in prints.

[GUT]

And I said "Burning in" earlier but of course we are talking about shadow so it would have to be "Dodging".

[Ginger]

I note that the bricks on the side wall where the door to #13 is situated all cast shadows, and quite sharp-looking ones. The joins between those bricks can't be all that deep, yet those are well-defined shadows. I'd have to wonder if the contrast wasn't manipulated to bring out details in the photo. Alternately, maybe the photographer just got lucky, and there were a few minutes of near-sunshine, even though the Met office says 100% cloud cover.

In any event, an interesting discourse, and the sort of thing I'd like to see more of. Thanks!

[Debra A]

Excellent work, Richard.
I'm presuming that your 3D model shows the archway/tunnel open at both ends? What would happen shadow-wise if you blocked off the Dorset street end as though there were a full length wooden gate in place? Just curious.

[Debra A]

Another question

Are you able to re-create the shadow effects depicted in this Lloyd's November 1888 illustration? Even though it is a drawing it looks to me as though the artist was actually in Miller's Court at some point and perhaps noted the shadow pattern at the time he was there accurately enough?

[richardh]

Are you able to re-create the shadow effects depicted in this Lloyd's November 1888 illustration? Even though it is a drawing it looks to me as though the artist was actually in Miller's Court at some point and perhaps noted the shadow pattern at the time he was there accurately enough?

I've tried recreating the shadows in 'Lloyd's, Debra, but with no success. The sun just doesn't come in from that direction or height in any month/week of the year.

I've adjusted my model to show a similar construction to LLoyd's:


I've posted three simulations below:
May 1888


June 1888


November 1888 (gets NO sun in November)


I think the shadows/sunlight in Lloyd's is down to artistic licence !

N.B: I had to remove the house block that is immediately in front of No.13's windows as they were obstructing the view.

[Debra A]

Okay, thanks for trying it.
What about my other suggestion? Any joy in reproducing that harsh shadow if you block off the Dorset St end of the tunnel?

[richardh]

Also as a by-product of the Lloyd's image shadow test (above). I created another overlay using the 1928 demolition photo. Now, bear in mind that this is just a test - I didn't set-out to get a match with this demolition photo and the Lloyd's drawing provided by Debra Allowed me to faff with the upper floors of Miller's Court (Prater's and above). So I based the above images off Lloyd's drawing and then positioned the camera into a similar position to the camera that took the demolition photo:







On a whim I decided that the photo was taken around 30th June 1928. I position my sun to sort of match the real photo's shadows and decided on around 3pm.

BIG Caveat: This little test was done in haste and not done with any precision. Even the demolition camera position is nowhere near the correct position but it does go on to demonstrate that the Lloyd's drawing is somewhat accurate to the real Miller's court. AND my shadows seem to fit okay too!

Here's an animation overlay - things line up quite well given that it was not actually intended, and it might help to demonstrate other structures in the photo that are hard to see or ambiguous:


I reckon that using that demolition photo could really help nail a more accurate 3D miller's court in terms of buildings around the Court AND the correct Height and proportions.

[richardh]

I'll try that experiment tomorrow Debra

Okay, thanks for trying it.
What about my other suggestion? Any joy in reproducing that harsh shadow if you block off the Dorset St end of the tunnel?