Miller's Court Sun/Shadow Study

[barnflatwyngarde]

Good piece of work Richardh.

I think that computer work like this will be one of the most significant advances in the study of the Whitechapel murders.

Thanks!

[GUT]

Though in 1928 I wouldn't rule out a plate Camera but it doesn't change the conclusion that it's a standard, so even if 35mm a 40 or 50.

[GUT]

GUT, what lens/Focal length and format do you think was used for the demolition photo? I want to create an accurate 3D overlay and use it identify as many buildings/structures as possible. For instance the houses to the right in Miller's court (on the demolition photo), I can't workout if they are still standing or have already been partly demolished. Also it will help with future shadow studies. I can also get the building heights and scales correct.

I'm assuming that the photo was taken on 120 roll?

Ultimately it would be great to have a highly accurate 3D of the demolition photo which can be zoomed into or even create a virtually fly-thru.

Where do you think the photographer was standing when taking that shot?

G'day Richard

If it was shot on 2 1/4 sq [or 6x6] then at a guess a 80mm looks pretty stock standard to me especially when compared to the sketch.

[richardh]

GUT, what lens/Focal length and format do you think was used for the demolition photo? I want to create an accurate 3D overlay and use it identify as many buildings/structures as possible. For instance the houses to the right in Miller's court (on the demolition photo), I can't workout if they are still standing or have already been partly demolished. Also it will help with future shadow studies. I can also get the building heights and scales correct.

I'm assuming that the photo was taken on 120 roll?

Ultimately it would be great to have a highly accurate 3D of the demolition photo which can be zoomed into or even create a virtually fly-thru.

Where do you think the photographer was standing when taking that shot?

[GUT]

This is very cool.

It's all the shadows that are making you cool

[Vincenzo]

This is very cool.

[Penhalion]

Thank-you for doing these. The information is amazing, probably as close as we will ever get to standing in Miller's Court.

[Debra A]

Thanks for those, Richard.
I knew the Lloyd's sketch was pretty accurate when compared to the demolition photos as it's been discussed before-that's why I wondered if the artist was also accurate with the shadows when he sketched it in Nov 88.

[jmenges]

Thanks for taking the time to do these. The demolition overlay is really neat-o.



JM

[richardh]

I'll try that experiment tomorrow Debra

Okay, thanks for trying it.
What about my other suggestion? Any joy in reproducing that harsh shadow if you block off the Dorset St end of the tunnel?

[richardh]

Also as a by-product of the Lloyd's image shadow test (above). I created another overlay using the 1928 demolition photo. Now, bear in mind that this is just a test - I didn't set-out to get a match with this demolition photo and the Lloyd's drawing provided by Debra Allowed me to faff with the upper floors of Miller's Court (Prater's and above). So I based the above images off Lloyd's drawing and then positioned the camera into a similar position to the camera that took the demolition photo:







On a whim I decided that the photo was taken around 30th June 1928. I position my sun to sort of match the real photo's shadows and decided on around 3pm.

BIG Caveat: This little test was done in haste and not done with any precision. Even the demolition camera position is nowhere near the correct position but it does go on to demonstrate that the Lloyd's drawing is somewhat accurate to the real Miller's court. AND my shadows seem to fit okay too!

Here's an animation overlay - things line up quite well given that it was not actually intended, and it might help to demonstrate other structures in the photo that are hard to see or ambiguous:


I reckon that using that demolition photo could really help nail a more accurate 3D miller's court in terms of buildings around the Court AND the correct Height and proportions.

[Debra A]

Okay, thanks for trying it.
What about my other suggestion? Any joy in reproducing that harsh shadow if you block off the Dorset St end of the tunnel?

[richardh]

Are you able to re-create the shadow effects depicted in this Lloyd's November 1888 illustration? Even though it is a drawing it looks to me as though the artist was actually in Miller's Court at some point and perhaps noted the shadow pattern at the time he was there accurately enough?

I've tried recreating the shadows in 'Lloyd's, Debra, but with no success. The sun just doesn't come in from that direction or height in any month/week of the year.

I've adjusted my model to show a similar construction to LLoyd's:


I've posted three simulations below:
May 1888


June 1888


November 1888 (gets NO sun in November)


I think the shadows/sunlight in Lloyd's is down to artistic licence !

N.B: I had to remove the house block that is immediately in front of No.13's windows as they were obstructing the view.

[Debra A]

Another question

Are you able to re-create the shadow effects depicted in this Lloyd's November 1888 illustration? Even though it is a drawing it looks to me as though the artist was actually in Miller's Court at some point and perhaps noted the shadow pattern at the time he was there accurately enough?

[Debra A]

Excellent work, Richard.
I'm presuming that your 3D model shows the archway/tunnel open at both ends? What would happen shadow-wise if you blocked off the Dorset street end as though there were a full length wooden gate in place? Just curious.