Kelly Timeline

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Wick

[Wickerman]

Point of trivia - the idea of photographing the eyes of the victim was first suggested towards the end of September over the Chapman case, it was rejected with good reason.

[FrankO]

Hi I believe she mentioned the sighting, to give the police a wrong time of death .. the letter penned to the Norfolk place a week prior , from her address is significant,

The date and address on the letter are at least interesting, Richard. Might she have given her statement to attract the police's attention to the address? Just a thought.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Herlock, but my point was Do we know WHEN this was done?

We don’t have an exact time but Wick provided these two quotes:

- I.P.N. 17 Nov. - Dr. Dukes; Dr. Phillips, of Spital-square; Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburg-square; and Dr. Bond, of Westminster Hospital, all saw the body, of which a photograph had been taken, shortly before two o'clock.

- Echo 10 Nov. - At four o'clock in the afternoon the body was removed from Dorset-street to Shoreditch Mortuary, . . . . The photographer who had been called to photograph the room and the body removed his camera from the premises at half-past four, . . . and shortly afterwards a detective office carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four-wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body.


So the best that we appear to be able to say is that they were photographed between just before 2.00 and 4.30.

[C. F. Leon]

Thanks Herlock, but my point was Do we know WHEN this was done?

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is probably better served as a separate thread, but for purposes of the Timeline, what do we know about the effort to recover an image from Kelly's eyes? Rumbelow is the ONLY source that I recall ever mentioning this in detail, including the procedure involved, but my copy is in Storage.

Also, didn't Warren show up in Miller's Court at some point? And I recall that there was some sort of incident at the Lord Mayor's Parade involving the news about yet ANOTHER murder. When was that?

Hi CF,

During Inspector Reid’s interview article in the News of The World, April 12th, 1896 he said:

“The suggestion having been made that in the eyes of a murdered person a reflection of the murderer might be retained, we had the eyes of Kelly photographed and the photographs magnified, but the effort was fruitless.”

[C. F. Leon]

This is probably better served as a separate thread, but for purposes of the Timeline, what do we know about the effort to recover an image from Kelly's eyes? Rumbelow is the ONLY source that I recall ever mentioning this in detail, including the procedure involved, but my copy is in Storage.

Also, didn't Warren show up in Miller's Court at some point? And I recall that there was some sort of incident at the Lord Mayor's Parade involving the news about yet ANOTHER murder. When was that?

[richardnunweek]

Hi I believe she mentioned the sighting, to give the police a wrong time of death .. the letter penned to the Norfolk place a week prior , from her address is significant,

[scottnapa]

Can you kindly present your evidence for this firm belief?

Thanks for your comment. George, I am a bit tardy in my response. (4th of July weekend)
Interesting question. A request for evidence. Hmm. I realize Lock's post is a factual timeline. My comment is a deduction. The sighting of Mary Kelly alive long after the estimated time of her death is a clear reason for me to question the veracity of these witnesses. The cries of murder align with the estimated time of death.
Bill Beadle's Mary Kelly dissertation mentions that witnesses claimed that Joe Barnett was with Mary Kelly. I interpret this to be a response in the Whitechapel community, as there is fear that the police would suspect Mary's ex-lover as the killer. I believe this is the reason for the false statements, there is an agenda to protect Joe Barrett. Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell need to be included in this timeline because they made statements to the police. I decline to classify their testimony as evidence.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Aint that the truth . . .
c.d. should love this . . .

The clampdown to satisfy the Government's Food Labelling Regulations was yesterday criticised by the Black Mountains Smokery boss.

A Welsh food firm last night hit out at bizarre rules that have forced it to explain that its 'dragon sausages' do not really contain dragons.

The company has been warned it could face legal action for misleading people that it uses dragon meat in its fiery sausages.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dragon-sausage-food-farce-2299224

More legal lunacy!

The name "dragon" is attached to numerous Welsh businesses. Presumably Dragon Taxis have been told that they must use real dragons to transport customers, or else change their name.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Hi Herlock,

I had a slight "senior moment" when I read this "The couple’s rent was 4s/6d (22 ½p) per week. (the rent was 29/- (£1 45p) behind when Kelly died.".

I grew up with Pounds, Shillings and Pence. A Pound had 20 shillings and a shilling had 12 pence. Our coins were a Penny, Threepence, Sixpence, a Shilling and a Florin (two Shillings). Notes were one Pound (a Quid), a fiver, a tenner and a reddy (twenty pounds). In 1966 Australia decimalised to Dollars, with a Dollar containing 100 cents (no nickels, dimes or quarters). A bit of research informed me that Britain kept the Pound at twenty Shillings, but changed the Shilling to have only 5 Pence. What was the point of that? Why didn't the British government decimalise the Pound to ten Shillings and the Shilling to ten Pence? No need to answer - politicians have never been the sharpest pencils in the box.

Hi George,

Not quite right. A shilling became 5 pence, the florin or two shillings became 10 pence, 10 shillings became 50 pence, twenty shillings became 100 pence or one pound, and the term shilling totally disappeared from use. But you are probably right about politicians.

[Wickerman]

No need to answer - politicians have never been the sharpest pencils in the box.

Aint that the truth . . .
c.d. should love this . . .

The clampdown to satisfy the Government's Food Labelling Regulations was yesterday criticised by the Black Mountains Smokery boss.

A Welsh food firm last night hit out at bizarre rules that have forced it to explain that its 'dragon sausages' do not really contain dragons.

The company has been warned it could face legal action for misleading people that it uses dragon meat in its fiery sausages.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dragon-sausage-food-farce-2299224

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I wasn’t aware of it but now that you’ve showed me I perhaps should have suspected that it existed. I knew that there was a one for Eddowes so I should have checked if there was one for Kelly (and Chapman for that matter) I’m supposed to be going out tonight but I’m suspecting that this will be cancelled until next weekend, if so I’ll have a good look through it.

Thanks for posting it George. Let me know if you happen to find one for Chapman too.

Hi Herlock,

I had a slight "senior moment" when I read this "The couple’s rent was 4s/6d (22 ½p) per week. (the rent was 29/- (£1 45p) behind when Kelly died.".

I grew up with Pounds, Shillings and Pence. A Pound had 20 shillings and a shilling had 12 pence. Our coins were a Penny, Threepence, Sixpence, a Shilling and a Florin (two Shillings). Notes were one Pound (a Quid), a fiver, a tenner and a reddy (twenty pounds). In 1966 Australia decimalised to Dollars, with a Dollar containing 100 cents (no nickels, dimes or quarters). A bit of research informed me that Britain kept the Pound at twenty Shillings, but changed the Shilling to have only 5 Pence. What was the point of that? Why didn't the British government decimalise the Pound to ten Shillings and the Shilling to ten Pence? No need to answer - politicians have never been the sharpest pencils in the box.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Kelly Timeline Draft 4

Phillips sending for a photographer, photographer taking photos, photographer removing his equipment and Officer removing a pail added at the suggestion of Wickerman.
…..

I’m having Dr Bond and Dr Duke arriving at 1.55. A number of newspapers reported “"The Divisional Surgeon arrived at the scene of the murder at 1.55pm, accompanied by Mr Dukes, another doctor, and they saw the body".

If the ‘Division Surgeon’ mentioned was Phillips the report, though incorrect, suggests that Duke was second to arrive. If the Divisional Surgeon was Bond (although it would be odd as he was DS to Westminster) it would make more sense in terms of timing because it would have Bond and Duke both arriving at 1.55. Also, according to the Morning Post of 10th Nov 1888: "Dr Duke, the police-surgeon of the 1st Division, and Dr Bond, the chief surgeon of the Metropolitan Police, arrived on the scene early and commenced a post-mortem examination".
…..


c5.00-6.00pm (October 30th) - Joseph Barnett moves out of 13 Miller’s Court (26 Dorset Street) because, according him, she had taken in a woman who was a prostitute. He calls Mary, Marie Jeanette Kelly.

Wednesday Afternoon - Thomas Bowyer of 47, Dorset Street, who worked for John McCarthy (the owner of the court) sees Mary Kelly alive for the last time.

Thursday morning - Charwoman Julia Venturney of 1 Miller’s Court, sees Mary Jane Kelly for the last time.

c7.30-7.45pm (Thursday) - Fish Porter Joseph Barnett (currently living with his sister at 21, Portpool Lane, Gray’s Inn Road) sees Mary Jane Kelly for the final time. He had lived with her for around 8 months (although McCarthy said that it was longer). Maria Harvey of 3, New Court, Dorset Street is also there in the room who also lived in the court but she left before Barnett did.

c8.00 - Julia Venturney goes to bed but only dozed all night. She heard nothing unusual.

c10.00-11.00 - A Dorset Street tailor called Maurice Lewis sees Mary in the Horn Of Plenty pub drinking with ‘some women (one of whom was called Julia) and a man called Dan (who, until recently, Kelly had been living with) She left with a respectable looking man.

c11.45pm - A very drunk Mary Jane Kelly is seen by Mary Ann Cox of Room 5, Miller’s Court walking down the passage to the court in the company of a man carrying a pot of ale. Kelly said “Goodnight..” before going into her room while singing a song.

c12.00am - Cox goes back out.

c12.30 - Catherine Picket, a flower seller living in the room opposite Mary’s (number 12) with her husband Dave, hears Mary singing.

c1.00 - Cox returns to her room and hears Kelly still singing.

c1.00 - Elizabeth Prater of room 20 returns to Miller’s Court. She has been out since 5.00pm. She stands on the corner. Her room is above the ‘shed’ at the front of the building where McCarthy kept his barrows.

c1.02 - Cox leaves her room to go out onto the street again. Kelly is still singing.

c1.20 - Elizabeth goes up to her room after calling it at McCarthy’s shop. She saw no light from Mary’s room as she passes.

c1.30 - She goes to bed after barricading the door. She quickly falls asleep.

c2.00 - George Hutchinson, Victoria Home, Commercial Street, sees Kelly near to Flower and Dean Street. She asks to borrow sixpence but Hutchinson has no money. He then sees a man approach Kelly near Thrawl Street. They passed Hutchinson and he followed them into Dorset Street. They stood at the entrance to the court for around 3 minutes then went inside. He watches the court.

c2.30 - Sarah Lewis, a laundress living at 24 Great Pearl Street, goes to Miller’s Court to visit Mrs Keyler at number 2. As she goes into Miller’s Court she sees a man opposite the lodging house who appears to be looking into the court. She sees a man with a drunk woman ‘further on.’

On her way to Miller’s Court she sees a man talking to a woman near to The Britannia. She had seen the same man in Bethnal Green Road at around 8.00 on the previous Wednesday. Lewis was with another woman and the man scared them by asking one of them to go with him into an entry.

c3.00 - George Hutchinson leaves Dorset Street.

c3.00 - Cox returns to her room and sees that the light is off in Mary’s room and all is quiet.

c3.00 - Thomas Bowyer goes to the tap in Miller’s Court to get water. Something that he did a number of times during the evening.

c3.15 (no actual time given) - Bowyer sees a man leaving Miller’s Court who resembles the description of the man seen by Hutchinson.

c3.30 - Sarah Lewis awakes after falling asleep in a chair at number 2

c3.30-3.45 - Elizabeth Prater his woken by a kitten and at that time she hears a faint cry of “oh murder” which seemed to come from within the court.

c4.00 - Sarah Lewis, at number 2, hears a loud cry of “murder” which sounded like the voice of a young woman.

c5.45 - Elizabeth is in The Ten Bells drinking rum. After a drink she goes back to her room and sleeps until 11.00.

c5.45- Cox hears a man walk down the court.

c7.30 - On her way to market Catherine Picket knocks on Mary’s door with the intention of borrowing her pelerine as it was raining but she got no answer.

c8.00 - Maurice Lewis says the he sees Mary leave her room and return a few moments later.

c8.00-8.30 - Caroline Maxwell of 14, Dorset Street says that she sees Mary standing at the entrance to Miller’s Court.

c8.45 - Maxwell says that she sees Kelly outside the Britannia beer shop talking to a man.

c10.00 - Maurice Lewis and his friends went to the Britannia pub where he saw Mary drinking with some people.

c10.45am (Friday) - On the order of John McCarthy, Thomas Bowyer, goes to Mary’s room (number 13 Miller’s Court) to collect rent plus arrears. On receiving no reply he looked through the window and saw Mary’s body on the bed.

c10.50 - Bowyer tells McCarthy what he’d found and they returned to Kelly’s room so that McCarthy could look through the window.*

c10.52 - They both went to Commercial Street where McCarthy asked for Inspector Reid but it’s difficult was Inspector Walter Beck who returned with them.

c11.00 (just after) Inspector Beck is told about the murder. He sends for Doctor Phillips and closed the court.

c11.00 - Divisional Police Surgeon, George Bagster Phillips of 2, Spital Square is informed of the murder.

c11.15 - Dr Phillips arrives and looks through the window of Mary Kelly’s room as the door is locked and sees that she is beyond help. He sends for a photographer.

c11.30 - Inspector Frederick George Abberline arrives at Miller’s Court and takes charge. Beck informs him that bloodhounds have been sent for.

c1.30 - Superintendent Arnold arrives and tells John McCarthy to break open the door to Kelly’s room after informing Abberline that the bloodhounds aren’t coming.

c1.30 - Dr Phillips leaves.

c1.50 - Robert Anderson arrives at Miller’s Court in a cab.

c1.50 - Photographs of the body are taken.

c1.55 - Dr Thomas Bond and Dr William Profit Dukes of 75, Brick Lane arrive.

? - Dr John Rees Gabe of 16 Mecklenburgh Square, St Pancras arrives. He was Resident Medical Officer of the London Dispensary and based nearby.

c4.00 (shortly after) - A covered van arrived at Miller’s Court to collect the remains. They were placed in the shell and taken to the mortuary which adjoined Shoreditch Church.

Kelly’s room was then closed, boarded up and padlocked.

c4.30 - The photographer removed his equipment.

Shortly after, a detective removes a pail covered in newspaper (believed to contain organs)

c5.30pm - Sarah Lewis leaves the court after being prevented from doing so by order of the police.

c7.30am (Saturday) - The post mortem took place at Shoreditch Mortuary and was performed by Doctors Phillips, Brown and Bond.


November 19th - Kelly’s funeral at St. Patrick’s Roman Catholic Cemetery, Leytonstone. Mr H Wilson, sexton of St. Leonard’s Church paid the costs.


The inquest takes place on Monday 12th November at Shoreditch Town Hall. The coroner is Dr Roderick MacDonald M.P. (Coroner to the north eastern district of Middlesex. Also present are: Superintendent Arnold (H division) Inspector Abberline CID and Inspector Nairn Also the deputy coroner Mr Hodgkinson.

Jurors - Joseph Gobly, George Buffery, E. Stevens, John Harvey, John Lloyd, Samuel Jenkins, Abraham Clements R Nettelfield, William Worf, Joseph Roberts, Lewis F Hunter, George Harry Wilson and Henry Dawkes.



Residents of Miller’s Court

Number 27 Dorset Street was McCarthy’s shop

Number 26 Miller’s Court was a storage area used by McCarthy known as ‘the shed.’


On the left - same side as the shop

Number 1 - Julia Venturney and Harry Owen

Number 2 - (above number 1) Mrs Keyler

Number 3 - A male market Porter

Number 4 - (above number 3) Unknown

Number 5 - Mary Ann Cox

Number 6 - (above number 5) unknown

Then privies


On the right - same side as the shed

Number 20 - (above number 26) Elizabeth Prater

Number 13 - Mary Jane Kelly

Number 12 - (above number 11) Catherine Pickett and husband Dave

Number 11 - Unknown

Number 10 Unknown

Number 9 - Unknown

Number 8 - (above number 7) Elizabeth Bushman

Number 7 - John Clarke or Alcock?


…..

To Do


Compare to Casebook’s Timeline (found by George)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Without any intent to demean your commendable efforts on a timeline, are you aware of this dissertation?:
https://www.casebook.org/timeline.kelly.html

Hi George,

I wasn’t aware of it but now that you’ve showed me I perhaps should have suspected that it existed. I knew that there was a one for Eddowes so I should have checked if there was one for Kelly (and Chapman for that matter) I’m supposed to be going out tonight but I’m suspecting that this will be cancelled until next weekend, if so I’ll have a good look through it.

Thanks for posting it George. Let me know if you happen to find one for Chapman too.