Kelly Timeline

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

Without any intent to demean your commendable efforts on a timeline, are you aware of this dissertation?:

https://www.casebook.org/timeline.kelly.html

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mike, there's a few more timestamps, if you think they are necessary.

Include in your c.11.15, Dr. Phillips sent for a photographer.

Included in your c.1:50, you might add that photographs were taken.

At 4:00 the body was removed from the room in an old shell, and taken to Shoreditch Mortuary.

At 4:30 the photographer removed his camera from the room, shortly after, a detective removed a pail covered in newspaper, thought to contain organs.


Your references for the above:

- Morning Advertiser 10 Nov. - Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived, and was followed by Dr. Bond, of Westminster, divisional surgeon of the A division, Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburgh-square, and two or three other surgeons. They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains.

- I.P.N. 17 Nov. - Dr. Dukes; Dr. Phillips, of Spital-square; Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburg-square; and Dr. Bond, of Westminster Hospital, all saw the body, of which a photograph had been taken, shortly before two o'clock.

- Echo 10 Nov. - At four o'clock in the afternoon the body was removed from Dorset-street to Shoreditch Mortuary, . . . . The photographer who had been called to photograph the room and the body removed his camera from the premises at half-past four, . . . and shortly afterwards a detective office carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four-wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body.

Thanks for these wick. They’ll certainly be added for the next draft. I’m now just trying to find out who attended the PM and what time the various Doctors arrived at Miller’s Court.

[Wickerman]

Mike, there's a few more timestamps, if you think they are necessary.

Include in your c.11.15, Dr. Phillips sent for a photographer.

Included in your c.1:50, you might add that photographs were taken.

At 4:00 the body was removed from the room in an old shell, and taken to Shoreditch Mortuary.

At 4:30 the photographer removed his camera from the room, shortly after, a detective removed a pail covered in newspaper, thought to contain organs.


Your references for the above:

- Morning Advertiser 10 Nov. - Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived, and was followed by Dr. Bond, of Westminster, divisional surgeon of the A division, Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburgh-square, and two or three other surgeons. They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains.

- I.P.N. 17 Nov. - Dr. Dukes; Dr. Phillips, of Spital-square; Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburg-square; and Dr. Bond, of Westminster Hospital, all saw the body, of which a photograph had been taken, shortly before two o'clock.

- Echo 10 Nov. - At four o'clock in the afternoon the body was removed from Dorset-street to Shoreditch Mortuary, . . . . The photographer who had been called to photograph the room and the body removed his camera from the premises at half-past four, . . . and shortly afterwards a detective office carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four-wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body.

[GBinOz]

I firmly believe Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis are "fishy" witnesses.

Can you kindly present your evidence for this firm belief?

[scottnapa]

Hello, Scott.

In case you haven't seen it, the late, great Adrian Phypers wrote a well-researched article on Joseph Barnett and challenged the claim that fish porters used knives or gutted fish. According to his inquiries, their main job was moving boxes.

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Hey Joe! Your Porter Story Sounds Fishy!

As for Barnett having once worked as a horse slaughterer, is there a reliable source for this? The only place I've ever seen this claim is on Wikipedia, but they do not give a source. Bruce Paley's book on Barnett certainly doesn't mention it, nor does Paul Harrison's (though Harrison had identified the wrong Joseph Barnett).

As Phypers discovered, judging by his porter's license, Barnett most probably started working at Billingsgate Market in his late teens. The 1881 census has him down as a general laborer. The contemporary press reports, as far as I can judge, do not mention such an occupation.

Thank you so much RJ.
The article is a very good read, thorough and detailed.
I was just repeating what I saw on Wikipedia and so I'm happy to stand corrected on horses.
I have no reason to suspect Barnett of anything.
I firmly believe Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis are "fishy" witnesses.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Kelly Timeline Draft 3

Information about the actual location of Elizabeth Prater’s room added (Wickerman)

Residents of Millers Court added (CF Leon)

Bowyers visit to the pump and sighting of man added (Wickerman)

…..


c5.00-6.00pm (October 30th) - Joseph Barnett moves out of 13 Miller’s Court (26 Dorset Street) because, according him, she had taken in a woman who was a prostitute. He calls Mary, Marie Jeanette Kelly.

? Wednesday Afternoon - Thomas Bowyer sees Mary Kelly alive for the last time.

? Thursday morning - Charwoman Julia Venturney of 1 Miller’s Court, sees Mary Jane Kelly for the last time.

c7.30-7.45pm (Thursday) - Fish Porter Joseph Barnett (currently living with his sister at 21, Portpool Lane, Gray’s Inn Road) sees Mary Jane Kelly for the final time. Maria Harvey of 3, New Court, Dorset Street is also there in the room who also lived in the court but she left before Barnett did.

c8.00 - Julia Venturney goes to bed but only dozed all night. She heard nothing unusual.

c10.00-11.00 - A Dorset Street tailor called Maurice Lewis sees Mary in the Horn Of Plenty pub drinking with ‘some women (one of whom was called Julia) and a man called Dan (who, until recently, Kelly had been living with) She left with a respectable looking man.

c11.45pm - A very drunk Mary Jane Kelly is seen by Mary Ann Cox of Room 5, Miller’s Court walking down the passage to the court in the company of a man carrying a pot of ale. Kelly said “Goodnight..” before going into her room while singing a song.

c12.00am - Cox goes back out.

c12.30 - Catherine Picket, a flower seller living in the room opposite Mary’s (number 12) with her husband Dave, hears Mary singing.

c1.00 - Cox returns to her room and hears Kelly still singing.

c1.00 - Elizabeth Prater of room 20 returns to Miller’s Court. She has been out since 5.00pm. She stands on the corner. Her room is above the ‘shed’ at the front of the building where McCarthy kept his barrows.

c1.02 - Cox leaves her room to go out onto the street again. Kelly is still singing.

c1.20 - Elizabeth goes up to her room after calling it at McCarthy’s shop. She saw no light from Mary’s room as she passes.

c1.30 - She goes to bed after barricading the door. She quickly falls asleep.

c2.00 - George Hutchinson, Victoria Home, Commercial Street, sees Kelly near to Flower and Dean Street. She asks to borrow sixpence but Hutchinson has no money. He then sees a man approach Kelly near Thrawl Street. They passed Hutchinson and he followed them into Dorset Street. They stood at the entrance to the court for around 3 minutes then went inside. He watches the court.

c2.30 - Sarah Lewis, a laundress living at 24 Great Pearl Street, goes to Miller’s Court to visit Mrs Keyler at number 2. As she goes into Miller’s Court she sees a man opposite the lodging house who appears to be looking into the court. She sees a man with a drunk woman ‘further on.’ On her way to Miller’s Court she sees a man talking to a woman near to The Britannia. She had seen the same man in Bethnal Green Road at around 8.00 on the previous Wednesday. Lewis was with another woman and the man scared them by asking one of them to go with him into an entry.

c3.00 - George Hutchinson leaves Dorset Street.

c3.00 - Cox returns to her room and sees that the light is off in Mary’s room and all is quiet.

c3.00 - Thomas Bowyer goes to the tap in Miller’s Court to get water. Something that he did a number of times during the evening.

c3.15 (no actual time given) - Bowyer sees a man leaving Miller’s Court who resembles the description of the man seen by Hutchinson.

c3.30 - Sarah Lewis awakes after falling asleep in a chair at number 2

c3.30-3.45 - Elizabeth Prater his woken by a kitten and at that time she hears a faint cry of “oh murder” which seemed to come from within the court.

c4.00 - Sarah Lewis, at number 2, hears a loud cry of “murder” which sounded like the voice of a young woman.

c5.45 - Elizabeth is in The Ten Bells drinking rum. After a drink she goes back to her room and sleeps until 11.00.

c 5.45- Cox hears a man walk down the court.

c7.30 - On her way to market Catherine Picket knocks on Mary’s door with the intention of borrowing her pelerine as it was raining but she got no answer.

c8.00 - Maurice Lewis says the he sees Mary leave her room and return a few moments later.

c8.00-8.30 - Caroline Maxwell of 14, Dorset Street says that she sees Mary standing at the entrance to Miller’s Court.

c8.45 - Maxwell says that she sees Kelly outside the Britannia beer shop talking to a man.

c10.00 - Maurice Lewis and his friends went to the Britannia pub where he saw Mary drinking with some people.

c10.45am (Friday) - On the order of John McCarthy, Thomas Bowyer of 37 Dorset Street, goes to Mary’s room (number 13 Miller’s Court) to collect rent plus arrears. On receiving no reply he looked through the window and saw Mary’s body on the bed.

c10.50 - Bowyer tells McCarthy what he’d found and they returned to Kelly’s room so that McCarthy could look through the window.

c10.52 - They both went to Commercial Street where McCarthy asked for Inspector Reid but it’s difficult was Inspector Walter Beck who returned with them.

c11.00 (just after) Inspector Beck is told about the murder. He sends for Doctor Phillips and closed the court.

c11.00 - Divisional Police Surgeon, George Bagster Phillips of 2, Spital Square is informed of the murder.

c11.15 - Dr Phillips arrives and looks through the window of Mary Kelly’s room as the door is locked and sees that she is beyond help. He remains at the court until around 1.30 as he sees that it’s necessary that no one enters the room.

c11.30 - Inspector Frederick George Abberline arrives at Miller’s Court and takes charge. Beck informs him that bloodhounds have been sent for.

c1.30 - Superintendent Arnold arrives and tells John McCarthy to break open the door to Kelly’s room after informing Abberline that the bloodhounds aren’t coming.

c1.50 - Robert Anderson arrives at Miller’s Court in a cab.

c4.00 (shortly after) - A covered van arrived at Miller’s Court to collect the remains. They were placed in the shell and taken to the mortuary which adjoined Shoreditch Church.

Kelly’s room was then closed, boarded up and padlocked.

c5.30pm - Sarah Lewis leaves the court after being prevented from doing so by order of the police.

c7.30am (Saturday) - The post mortem took place at Shoreditch Mortuary



The inquest takes place on Monday 12th November at Shoreditch Town Hall. The coroner is Dr Roderick MacDonald M.P. (Coroner to the north eastern district of Middlesex. Also present are: Superintendent Arnold (H division) Inspector Abberline CID and Inspector Nairn Also the deputy coroner Mr Hodgkinson.

Jurors - Joseph Gobly, George Buffery, E. Stevens, John Harvey, John Lloyd, Samuel Jenkins, Abraham Clements R Nettelfield, William Worf, Joseph Roberts, Lewis F Hunter, George Harry Wilson and Henry Dawkes.

…..

Residents of Miller’s Court


Number 27 Dorset Street was McCarthy’s shop

Number 26 Miller’s Court was a storage area used by McCarthy known as ‘the shed.’


On the left - same side as the shop

Number 1 - Julia Venturney and Harry Owen

Number 2 - (above number 1) Mrs Keyler

Number 3 - A male market Porter

Number 4 - (above number 3) Unknown

Number 5 - Mary Ann Cox

Number 6 - (above number 5) unknown

Then privies


On the right - same side as the shed

Number 20 - (above number 26) Elizabeth Prater

Number 13 - Mary Jane Kelly

Number 12 - (above number 11) Catherine Pickett and husband Dave

Number 11 - Unknown

Number 10 Unknown

Number 9 - Unknown

Number 8 - (above number 7) Elizabeth Bushman

Number 7 - John Clarke or Alcock?


(Information from a thread on JtRForums started by Trevor Bond)

……


Questions/Tasks


Confirm a full list of those present at the PM

[rjpalmer]

Barnett has knife skills; current fish monger and in earlier times, a horse slaughterer.

Hello, Scott.

In case you haven't seen it, the late, great Adrian Phypers wrote a well-researched article on Joseph Barnett and challenged the claim that fish porters used knives or gutted fish. According to his inquiries, their main job was moving boxes.

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Hey Joe! Your Porter Story Sounds Fishy!

As for Barnett having once worked as a horse slaughterer, is there a reliable source for this? The only place I've ever seen this claim is on Wikipedia, but they do not give a source. Bruce Paley's book on Barnett certainly doesn't mention it, nor does Paul Harrison's (though Harrison had identified the wrong Joseph Barnett).

As Phypers discovered, judging by his porter's license, Barnett most probably started working at Billingsgate Market in his late teens. The 1881 census has him down as a general laborer. The contemporary press reports, as far as I can judge, do not mention such an occupation.

[scottnapa]

Thanks for starting the post, Lock.
The testimonies of Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell are at odds with too many facts.
I believe anxiety is the reason for the Lewis and Maxwell statements; they are concerned that Joseph Barnett wiil be the obvious police suspect and their testimony moves the time of the murder forward to provide Barnett an alibi. The violent fight that proceeded the separation is fresh in everyone's minds. Barnett has knife skills; current fish monger and in earlier times, a horse slaughterer. I don't think Barnett had anything to do with her death. I believe it would be common for the "unfortunates" to look out for each other.

[Wickerman]

. . . I could go with the assumption that this was Astrachan Man.

It's just the most likely of the three people we know of.
Blotchy arrived about 11:45 pm, if he killed Kelly, is it likely he was the man Bowyer saw at, or after 3:00 am?
Cox's statement does make Blotchy a suspect, but other witnesses claim to have seen Kelly out after her liaison with Blotchy, which then casts doubt on him being the man Bowyer saw.

Then there's Hutchinson himself, he did claim to have walked up the court to stand outside Kelly's room sometime before 3:00 am, yet Bowyer says the man he saw fit the description of the murderer.
Do we think Hutchinson may have looked like Blotchy, their descriptions do not indicate that, and it is highly unlikely Hutchinson would describe Astrachan in the way he himself dressed. We can be sure Hutchinson looked nothing like Astrachan.
Which leaves us with everybody's bogey-man, Astrachan, who nobody wants to believe existed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock, may I suggest that you include a listing of the residents of Miller's Court, like you did with the residents of 29 Hanbury Street?

Will do CF

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, I know your main interest is the time of the events, Bowyer's story is timed at 3:00am, roughly, but the article isn't clear, which is likely the journalists fault.
Here is the full article . .


Echo, 14 Nov. 1888.

You'll notice we read: "Early on Friday morning, Bowyer saw a man . . ."
But, at the end Bowyer says: ". . if I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock . . ."
He doesn't say he saw Kelly, just the man, which suggests the man was alone, so was he leaving? If so this must have been after 3:00 am, otherwise, that last line doesn't really make sense.

So….

2.30 - Mary enters Miller’s Court with Astrakhan Man, witnessed by George Hutchinson and Sarah Lewis.
3.00 - Thomas Bowyer goes to the tap in the court to get water but sees no one.

then, sometime after 3.00 he sees Astrakhan leave the court. If he sees him at 3.15 he’s had 45 minutes with Kelly. It could have been 3.30 giving him an hour. Hutchinson is long gone by then. Cox noticed that Mary’s light was off at around 3.00 but the killer could have been hacking away by firelight?

Long enough to be our man and at least a confirmation of Hutchinson.

[C. F. Leon]

Herlock, may I suggest that you include a listing of the residents of Miller's Court, like you did with the residents of 29 Hanbury Street?

[Wickerman]

Thanks Wick. Either I’m allowing myself to get distracted and am not concentrating enough or I’m losing the plot. It’s a pity that we don’t have a stated time for Bowyers sighting but I could go with the assumption that this was Astrachan Man. I’ll make an amendment next draft. If I’ve missed anything else or made any errors keep posting them Wick. Accuracy is the aim.

Yes, I know your main interest is the time of the events, Bowyer's story is timed at 3:00am, roughly, but the article isn't clear, which is likely the journalists fault.
Here is the full article . .


Echo, 14 Nov. 1888.

You'll notice we read: "Early on Friday morning, Bowyer saw a man . . ."
But, at the end Bowyer says: ". . if I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock . . ."
He doesn't say he saw Kelly, just the man, which suggests the man was alone, so was he leaving? If so this must have been after 3:00 am, otherwise, that last line doesn't really make sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No Mike, both reports are valid.
Bowyer didn't see Kelly on Friday morning, only the man, he last saw Kelly on Wednesday with another man.

On Friday he saw the Hutchinson suspect (confirming Hutchinson's story), The report says the man seen by Bowyer "matched the description of the suspect". This was in the Wednesday evening paper of the 14th (Echo), after Hutchinson had spoken to the police, and from the morning of the 13th Astrachan was the new police suspect, this will be who Bowyer was referring to.

There was also a statement from Mrs McCarthy in the same paper, who reported that one of her customers that morning saw "a funny-looking man" up the court, this was before the murder was known.
McCarthy's shop was open till three o'clock a.m., given what we know, that customer could have been Sarah Lewis, whom McCarthy wouldn't know because she didn't live in the court.
As I've pointed out before, Lewis followed Kelly & Astrachan up the passage, so the coincidence fits.

Thanks Wick. Either I’m allowing myself to get distracted and am not concentrating enough or I’m losing the plot. It’s a pity that we don’t have a stated time for Bowyers sighting but I could go with the assumption that this was Astrachan Man. I’ll make an amendment next draft. If I’ve missed anything else or made any errors keep posting them Wick. Accuracy is the aim.

[Wickerman]

Thanks Doc, I should have double-checked this (I’ll blame the distractions) It looks like a mix up with days.

No Mike, both reports are valid.
Bowyer didn't see Kelly on Friday morning, only the man, he last saw Kelly on Wednesday with another man.

On Friday he saw the Hutchinson suspect (confirming Hutchinson's story), The report says the man seen by Bowyer "matched the description of the suspect". This was in the Wednesday evening paper of the 14th (Echo), after Hutchinson had spoken to the police, and from the morning of the 13th Astrachan was the new police suspect, this will be who Bowyer was referring to.

There was also a statement from Mrs McCarthy in the same paper, who reported that one of her customers that morning saw "a funny-looking man" up the court, this was before the murder was known.
McCarthy's shop was open till three o'clock a.m., given what we know, that customer could have been Sarah Lewis, whom McCarthy wouldn't know because she didn't live in the court.
As I've pointed out before, Lewis followed Kelly & Astrachan up the passage, so the coincidence fits.