MJK’s appearance

[Sam Flynn]

Or as my mother would often say, "big boned".

At 5' 7", we can hardly use the euphemism "under-tall"

[miss marple]

Nastasha,
It does appear that the body on the bed was about 5.7 or 8. Standard double mattresses were about 6 ft in length and as you point out, the body on the bed is tall.
Mrs Maxwell and Maurice Lewis were unreliable witnesses, particularly Lewis who would have have Mary sliced and diced after 10. AM when the body was discovered at 10 45
Their description of Mary as short dark and stout does not match anyone else or Mrs Maxwell saying she was on her own and kept herself to herself. When she was living with Barnett and Mary had been a well known whore around Whitechapel and at the Ten Bells.
Please read past posts on Kelly and other posts on the casebook, you will learn a lot
Don't drag Mary Pearcy into the mix. That is a tragic case and a story of obsession. It has nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders. Ignore extreme theories, there are crazy ideas out there . The casebook gives everyone a voice. Focus on the knowns and possible unknowns not crazy ideas linking famous people, royalty, conspiracy theories or other famous murders. Keep it simple and check your references.

Miss Marple

[Natasha]

Nastasha,
It does appear that the body on the bed was about 5.7 or 8. Standard double mattresses were about 6 ft in length and as you point out, the body on the bed is tall.
Mrs Maxwell and Maurice Lewis were unreliable witnesses, particularly Lewis who would have have Mary sliced and diced after 10. AM when the body was discovered at 10 45
Their description of Mary as short dark and stout does not match anyone else or Mrs Maxwell saying she was on her own and kept herself to herself. When she was living with Barnett and Mary had been a well known whore around Whitechapel and at the Ten Bells.
Please read past posts on Kelly and other posts on the casebook, you will learn a lot
Don't drag Mary Pearcy into the mix. That is a tragic case and a story of obsession. It has nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders. Ignore extreme theories, there are crazy ideas out there . The casebook gives everyone a voice. Focus on the knowns and possible unknowns not crazy ideas linking famous people, royalty, conspiracy theories or other famous murders. Keep it simple and check your references.

Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple

I appreciate your advice, but as there is a lot of ground covered in way of suggestions on JTR, I'm trying to take a look at them with fresh eyes. I've been trying to look at other possibilities also, by asking questions that may spark some new leads.

I have not gone done the Prince Eddy route, it has been suggested that he was gay and I'm sure there were quite a number of people who knew this at the time and I don't think prostitutes would have been taken seriously if they spread rumours like that, I suspect people of a higher class would perhaps be in more danger if spreading rumours like that. Because there is the suggestion of him being gay, I don't see why he would marry a prostitute.

I'm not entirely ruling out doctors, the Victorian era was the beginning of medical advances etc after all.

Mary Pearcy was brought into this because she fitted the description made by Lewis. Also I'm aware of Pearcy's case.

The point I'm making about the description of this woman made by Lewis is she may have been be involved with the murder.

In regards to the famous people, I suggested this based on what may have been said by MJK. I know people talk crap all the time. She may have said this so people think highly of her or whatever. It was a potential lead that may still warrant investigation (it doesn't necessary need to be a famous relative on stage) As I've mentioned before it was easy to gain a job in theatre back then, not just on stage, but backstage etc. Performers, especially women were not looked upon with awe like now days, theatre was associated with prostitutes.

My other suggestion of a cover up was just that speculation, it hadn't been mentioned before and as no one has solved any of these crimes I'm looking at different reasons etc for these deaths. They may seem wacky, but I suggest these to spark debate which may lead to uncovering information that be have been overlooked

[bolo]

Hi all,

the picture of Mary's mutilated body on the bed does not give me the impression of a stout lady, at least from what I can tell from the left leg and left arm.

Best wishes,

Boris

[Natasha]

Hi all,

the picture of Mary's mutilated body on the bed does not give me the impression of a stout lady, at least from what I can tell from the left leg and left arm.

Best wishes,

Boris

Hi Boris

I agree

I know people say that Lewis is talking rubbish, but why would he lie about knowing this 'Kelly' could he be involved with her murder?

[Sam Flynn]

The point I'm making about the description of this woman made by Lewis is she may have been be involved with the murder.

But Lewis's description neither matches Mary Pearcey nor Mary Kelly. The man was clearly untrustworthy, and a bit of a shyster, as the following article would appear to back up:

Morris Lewis, 22, a Polish Jew, was charged, on remand, before Mr Lushington, with stealing a number of articles, valued at £5, belonging to Julius Levy, a tailor, of 161 Cannon-street-road St George's-in-the-East. He was further charged with stealing things from the house of Esther Abrahams, 36 Fashion-street Spitalfields.

Levy stated that between 7 and 8 o'clock on the evening of the 8th [Dec] the prisoner went to him and asked if he wanted a presser. He replied he did not, and then Lewis told him where he had been working. The prisoner then went downstairs, and about 12:30 the next morning the witness missed two jackets, two overcoats, two waistcoats, etc, worth £5. The things were taken from the first floor front room. At the time the accused called the door of the room in question was unlocked, and shortly before that the witness saw the things safe. The door was unlocked all the evening.

He afterwards saw the prisoner and gave him into custody. Lewis said, "I know nothing of it." Later on he said, "If you go to my father he will give you double the money."

Esther Abrahams, 36 Fashion-street Spitalfields, said that on the 19th [Dec] she went out for a few minutes, and on coming home she found the door of her room unlocked. She then saw a man coming downstairs, and afterwards missed clothing to the value of £6, from her room.

The prisoner subsequently knocked at her door, and asked if she knew a presser named Harris. She told him she had been robbed, and he said, "I saw the thief wrapping up all your things in a bag. I know the thief quite well, and can get your things back." He afterwards brought her some of the things back. Her brother afterwards gave the prisoner 1s for his trouble. When the prisoner was in custody he said, "Will you go home to my father's place and get your things back, and not go against me."

Morning Advertiser, 31st December 1888

[Sam Flynn]

the picture of Mary's mutilated body on the bed does not give me the impression of a stout lady, at least from what I can tell from the left leg and left arm.

Sorry, bolo - and, posthumously, Mary - but to me, she has a nicely upholstered right calf and fleshly arms, what's left of them. By 19th Century Spitalfields standards at least, this was not a skinny woman - she certainly seems to have been the "stoutest" of all the canonical victims, and most of the non-canonicals apart from Tabram.

[Natasha]

Hi Sam

I only suggested Pearcy because of the teeth if I'm honest

Of course he seems shifty, but what was he playing at? Was he just feeding everyone lies for the hell of it, for attention maybe, I guess it's possible that he just wanted to have some connection with all the hype of the murder (not for the obvious of course). I can't think (at least at the moment) why else he would lie other then what I mentioned above, his possible involvement or if he was telling the truth.

Also it was Maxwell who suggested the speech impediment, she s another person that is quite suspicious. What was her game?

[Sam Flynn]

to me, she has a nicely upholstered right calf and fleshly arms, what's left of them.

I might add that, when we look at the "full body" photograph, we're probably seeing her left leg from the knee downwards (albeit with some flesh gouged from her calf, causing an apparent "dent" halfway down the shin). That's one shapely leg indeed, far removed from being the leg of a skinny-bones.

[Sam Flynn]

I only suggested Pearcy because of the teeth if I'm honest

Indeed, but Pearcey's teeth were something else! More like an enamel bear-trap than a couple of sticky-out dentures

Of course he seems shifty, but what was he playing at? Was he just feeding everyone lies for the hell of it, for attention maybe, I guess it's possible that he just wanted to have some connection with all the hype of the murder

He wouldn't have been the first and, if he's the "chancer" I think he is, I wouldn't put it past him to make up any old shaggy-dog story (like knowing Kelly for 5 years) just to get some attention, and possibly a nice back-hander from the press.

Also it was Maxwell who suggested the speech impediment, she s another person that is quite suspicious. What was her game?

She was clearly mistaken, but I read nothing suspicious into her behaviour.

[Natasha]

Indeed, but Pearcey's teeth were something else! More like an enamel bear-trap than a couple of sticky-out dentures

I know, she does look quite scary

possibly a nice back-hander from the press

That's quite interesting, I was wondering weather the press offered money in them days for stories.

[jason_c]

With regards to stout. I get the impression of healthily big boned. This was the East End; an East End that was not unknown for having emaciated human beings walking the streets. The 19th century East End definition of stout would be rather different to todays.

Just as a query, how was Chapman's physical size described in contemporary reports?

[Sam Flynn]

Just as a query, how was Chapman's physical size described in contemporary reports?

Chapman was described variously as "stout", "rather stout" and "well-proportioned". Dr Phillips also noted that she showed signs of malnourishment, although I don't know whether this should be taken as an indicator of her BMI. She was, it should be noted, very much shorter than Mary Kelly.

[jason_c]

Chapman was described variously as "stout", "rather stout" and "well-proportioned". Dr Phillips also noted that she showed signs of malnourishment, although I don't know whether this should be taken as an indicator of her BMI. She was, it should be noted, very much shorter than Mary Kelly.

Thanks for the information. These descriptions were rather more polite than I imagine they could have been for those times.

[bolo]

Hello Sam,

Sorry, bolo - and, posthumously, Mary - but to me, she has a nicely upholstered right calf and fleshly arms, what's left of them. By 19th Century Spitalfields standards at least, this was not a skinny woman - she certainly seems to have been the "stoutest" of all the canonical victims, and most of the non-canonicals apart from Tabram.

maybe you are right, she may have been "East End stout" in comparison to some of her contemporaries or the other victims.

Perhaps I have a wrong idea of the word stout, I'm automatically thinking of someone like Martha Tabram when I hear it, and what is left from Kelly on that particular picture does not look Tabram-ish in my eyes.

Best wishes,

Boris