MJK’s appearance

[GUT]

Of course we must remember that what is considered attractive, in terms of a females build, has varied greatly over the years and having "a bit of meat on her bones" was probably, in 1888, considered "sexy".

I know from various sources that it was about 20 years earlier.

[bolo]

Hi GUT,

Of course we must remember that what is considered attractive, in terms of a females build, has varied greatly over the years and having "a bit of meat on her bones" was probably, in 1888, considered "sexy".

I know from various sources that it was about 20 years earlier.

quite right, the "Rubens look" was still popular in some circles back in the day. However, "stout" probably was not considered an appropriate term to use as a compliment for a woman. In my opinion, it was used as a nice way of saying that someone had actually too much meat on his/her bone (just like today) in a conversation of two or more people who are talking about/describing a person and want to sound respectful. In this light, I must say that I still can't see any of that in Mary Kelly's crime scene photograph.

Best wishes,

Boris

[jason_c]

Wouldn't Dew's later description of Kelly add some weight(pardon the pun) to the possibility of Kelly being stout? I forget his wording, but his account of Kelly almost bullying other prostitutes may imply something of a battleaxe about her. I know Dew's account has been questioned by some.

[GUT]

G'day Jason_c

Wouldn't Dew's later description of Kelly add some weight(pardon the pun) to the possibility of Kelly being stout? I forget his wording, but his account of Kelly almost bullying other prostitutes may imply something of a battleaxe about her. I know Dew's account has been questioned by some.

But you don't need to be "stout" to bully someone.

[jason_c]

But you don't need to be "stout" to bully someone.

True, but it does help.

[Debra A]

This is from an old forums post of mine-just posting again for interest:

-A while back I was going through the UK, Licences of Parole for Female Convicts, on Ancestry and noticed that at the bottom of the medical records section was a key for classifying the build of the female prisoners.

There were four categories to choose from, and each female prisoner had one of these descriptions given in her medical records, along with her weight in pounds, and her height:

"To be described as far as possible by one of the following terms:-
1st, Stout and Strong,
2nd, Fat
3rd, Spare but muscular
4th, Spare and Weak"

As Mary Jane Kelly was often described as stout, just out of curiosity (and probably because I had nothing better to do at the time ), I went through the files of women in a similar age group to Mary Jane Kelly was at the time of her death, and who's last known address was either Whitechapel, Spitalfields or St George in the East, just to do a comparison on the size and weight of the women categorized as 'stout' against a modern day BMI calculation. The majority of the women described as 'stout' in this small (very unscientific) sample would have been a healthy weight or just slightly overweight by today's standards. These were all women described as 'stout', in Victorian records, to clarify. The 'overweight' or 'healthy weight' is what their classification would be now based on BMI.

Here are the results.
Body Mass Index -Normal weight range= 18.5–24.9
Overweight range= 25–29.9


Bridget Kelly
aged 20 yrs 10 mos.in 1882
b Chatham
Last place of abode-Whitechapel
stout and strong
5ft 5 half in weight 158lbs
BMI 25.5-overweight


Emily Brennan
aged 31yrs 1 mo in 1881
b Whitechapel
Last abode-Whitechapel
stout and strong 5ft 5 and half, weight 161lbs
BMI 26.8 overweight

Lucy Brent
aged 32yrs 7 mos in 1883
b Lincolnshire
Last abode-Whitechapel
5ft 1 half weight 126lbs
BMI-23 healthy weight

Annie Cohen
Aged 29 yrs 7 mos in 1881
b City of London
Last abode-Spitalfields
stout and strong 5ft 3 weight 142lbs
BMI 25.2 -overweight

Mary Ann Crawley
aged 27yrs
b Whitechapel
last abode-Spitalfields
stout and stong 5ft 3 weight 128lbs
BMI 22.7 healthy weight

Catherine Clark
aged 27yrs 7 mos in 1879
b St george East
last abode St George East
stout and strong 5ft 3 and half175lbs
BMI 30-overweight

And for comparison, one described as being 'fat'
Elizabeth Smith
aged 30 yrs in 1879
b Commercial Rd
last abode Commercial Rd
fat
4ft 11 126lbs
BMI 25.4-overweight

[The Good Michael]

Debs,

Thanks. The BMI thing doesn't really work well. Yeah, it roughly can say something, but I would say a woman 5"1" at 126 pounds is overweight unless she were quite muscular. I'm not insulting anyone. I am being honest with regards to body fat. I would say all these ladies in the list were overweight or stout.

Mike

[Debra A]

Debs,

Thanks. The BMI thing doesn't really work well. Yeah, it roughly can say something, but I would say a woman 5"1" at 126 pounds is overweight unless she were quite muscular. I'm not insulting anyone. I am being honest with regards to body fat. I would say all these ladies in the list were overweight or stout.

Mike

Thanks Mike.
Yes, these were all women listed as stout in the records. The word 'fat' (of which there was also an official category) wasn't as widely used as 'stout' in the records I looked at-there was obviously a distinction made?
I thought what was interesting was that both 'stout' and 'fat' were actual categories used by medics to describe women prisoners' build. Also a distinction is made between just thin (scrawny) and thin and muscular. (using the word 'spare' which is something I haven't ever come across in modern language.

Yes, modern BMI calculation is problematic-the Victorian prison method seems to include distinctions of build, unlike BMI , which I was hoping to convey.

[Sam Flynn]

Perhaps I have a wrong idea of the word stout, I'm automatically thinking of someone like Martha Tabram when I hear it, and what is left from Kelly on that particular picture does not look Tabram-ish in my eyes.

Tabram looks "overweight" or "fat" in my book, Boris. In her case "stout" would have been a euphemism at best. Bless her.

[The Good Michael]

Thanks Mike.
Yes, these were all women listed as stout in the records. The word 'fat' (of which there was also an official category) wasn't as widely used as 'stout' in the records I looked at-there was obviously a distinction made?
I thought what was interesting was that both 'stout' and 'fat' were actual categories used by medics to describe women prisoners' build. Also a distinction is made between just thin (scrawny) and thin and muscular. (using the word 'spare' which is something I haven't ever come across in modern language.

Yes, modern BMI calculation is problematic-the Victorian prison method seems to include distinctions of build, unlike BMI , which I was hoping to convey.

I always thought of 'spare' as lean like a wolf (muscle with very low body fat). Also, most Victorian fiction I have read use 'portly' for men and 'stout' for women, and they appear to be less crass ways of saying 'fat'.

Mike

[Debra A]

I always thought of 'spare' as lean like a wolf (muscle with very low body fat). Also, most Victorian fiction I have read use 'portly' for men and 'stout' for women, and they appear to be less crass ways of saying 'fat'.

Mike

Well the prison medics at least were asked to categorise women prisoners on build,those categories being- Stout, fat, spare and muscular or spare and weak. Some of the 'stout' women don't look that big in their photographs, although, granted, they are just head and shoulder shots.

[GUT]

G'day Deb

This is from an old forums post of mine-just posting again for interest:

-A while back I was going through the UK, Licences of Parole for Female Convicts, on Ancestry and noticed that at the bottom of the medical records section was a key for classifying the build of the female prisoners.

There were four categories to choose from, and each female prisoner had one of these descriptions given in her medical records, along with her weight in pounds, and her height:

"To be described as far as possible by one of the following terms:-
1st, Stout and Strong,
2nd, Fat
3rd, Spare but muscular
4th, Spare and Weak"

As Mary Jane Kelly was often described as stout, just out of curiosity (and probably because I had nothing better to do at the time ), I went through the files of women in a similar age group to Mary Jane Kelly was at the time of her death, and who's last known address was either Whitechapel, Spitalfields or St George in the East, just to do a comparison on the size and weight of the women categorized as 'stout' against a modern day BMI calculation. The majority of the women described as 'stout' in this small (very unscientific) sample would have been a healthy weight or just slightly overweight by today's standards. These were all women described as 'stout', in Victorian records, to clarify. The 'overweight' or 'healthy weight' is what their classification would be now based on BMI.

Here are the results.
Body Mass Index -Normal weight range= 18.5–24.9
Overweight range= 25–29.9


Bridget Kelly
aged 20 yrs 10 mos.in 1882
b Chatham
Last place of abode-Whitechapel
stout and strong
5ft 5 half in weight 158lbs
BMI 25.5-overweight


Emily Brennan
aged 31yrs 1 mo in 1881
b Whitechapel
Last abode-Whitechapel
stout and strong 5ft 5 and half, weight 161lbs
BMI 26.8 overweight

Lucy Brent
aged 32yrs 7 mos in 1883
b Lincolnshire
Last abode-Whitechapel
5ft 1 half weight 126lbs
BMI-23 healthy weight

Annie Cohen
Aged 29 yrs 7 mos in 1881
b City of London
Last abode-Spitalfields
stout and strong 5ft 3 weight 142lbs
BMI 25.2 -overweight

Mary Ann Crawley
aged 27yrs
b Whitechapel
last abode-Spitalfields
stout and stong 5ft 3 weight 128lbs
BMI 22.7 healthy weight

Catherine Clark
aged 27yrs 7 mos in 1879
b St george East
last abode St George East
stout and strong 5ft 3 and half175lbs
BMI 30-overweight

And for comparison, one described as being 'fat'
Elizabeth Smith
aged 30 yrs in 1879
b Commercial Rd
last abode Commercial Rd
fat
4ft 11 126lbs
BMI 25.4-overweight

I've said ir before and I'll say it again, "You never cease to amaze". Thank you.

[Debra A]

Thank you , GUT.
We are all interested in things like MJK's real appearance-old hands (mostly secretly ) and newbies.
I have these prison records because quite a few things in them are interesting from a social history point of view, particularly the records of Whitechapel/Spitalfields women...and I love to bore others about them!

[GUT]

G'day Deb

I first discovered "Casebook" while researching family history and I just wish I had your ability to hunt out the little titbits and the big things too.

[bolo]

Hello Sam, Debra, all,

thank you for re-posting the info on appearance/weight descriptions, greatly appreciated. Looks like Mary Kelly could have been stout then, given that the term referred to a person with healthy weight or some small amount of extra meat on their bones.

This is not meant to sound disrespectful but I wonder how some of the reputedly poor people of the East End like Martha Tabram or Annie Chapman could gain so much weight.

Best wishes,

Boris