'oh Murder'

[Wickerman]

One other detail that always intrigued me was those two windows.
What builder would place two windows side-by-side in the same room, yet different sizes, and at different elevations?
Builders usually incorporate symmetry when possible.



It struck me that there may have been an internal partition between those two windows making a small room, and a passage down the side.
The small window then may have originally been a back door.

The partition since being removed, and the back door bricked up to make a small window.
The door we see on the side may have began life as a window for light into the passage.

And, if there had been a passage there originally, that would explain why the image of a door is seen so far away from the corner of the room in the previous sketch. It is due to the partition wall being removed.

[Ginger]

Thanks, Sam and Wickerman!

[Wickerman]

If you look close at the photo (Body on the bed), in the background the wainscoting appears to carry on the same angle into the corner of the room away to the right. It doesn't turn at the back of the headboard.
In other words it appears the bed is a couple of feet away from the right side wall. There is the faint image of a door at the side of the bed.

Something like this.

[Sam Flynn]

Prater's staircase ran along the back wall of Kelly's room? Was the entrance to the stairs in the covered passageway, then? Was it only an entrance to the stairs?

The doorway to the stairs was indeed in the passageway, although the staircase didn't abut directly against Kelly's wall - which was, in fact, only a flimsy partition. There would have been space between the partition and the foot of the stairs, but any light streaming through chinks in the partition would have been easily visible as one climbed the stairs in the dark.

The staircase might once have been accessible from the front of the house, but McCarthy now used the front room for storage - a space colloquially known as "The Shed".

[Ginger]

Prater's staircase ran along the back wall of Kelly's room? Was the entrance to the stairs in the covered passageway, then? Was it only an entrance to the stairs?

[Natasha]

Hi guys

Thanks for the info on the partition
Maybe Prater felt like she might be intruding by looking through a gap into someones house etc, and did the polite thing by not acknowledging it too much, and if that is the case this would explain why we wouldn’t know for sure how much the of the room could have been seen. Also Prater appears to not have a definite answer either way as to weather the light was on. You may say why wouldn’t Prater say anything to Kelly? Kelly may have perceived that her neighbours were nosy and should mind their own business.

I find it a bit unusual that nobody else mentioned seeing any lights through the gap, maybe they did indeed see something they shouldn't have

So that would leave the window and possibly the keyhole, maybe there is something else that has been overlooked.

[Sam Flynn]

You are quite correct Boris.
From Praters GLRO version, that she "could have" seen the glimmer of light while ascending the stairs - if the light had been on.

In the Daily News, 13th Nov, we have some very interesting additional detail from Prater:

"On Thursday morning about 1 o'clock I was waiting for a young man outside the house. I was then on a level with the deceased's window, but I do not recollect whether there was a light in it."

It seems that Prater's waiting for her "young man" outside the Court gave her a vantage-point such that any light streaming out of Kelly's window might have been visible. Not that she noticed.

[GUT]

On all the photos it doesn't look a very solid partition so I am not surprised that light showed through but I doubt it was the means of access for the killer for a few reasons:

1. I feel sure that such access would have been noticeable to the police

2. The room was so small I am note sure that there was enough room to gain access that way

3. The Photo appears to show the bed pushed hard against the wall so unless the killer pushed it against the partition and then left by the door it just doesn't work.

[Wickerman]

You are quite correct Boris.
From Praters GLRO version, that she "could have" seen the glimmer of light while ascending the stairs - if the light had been on.

It might be that she is describing the partition wall not quite meeting the ceiling?

[bolo]

Hello Jon,

thanks for posting the details on Prater's testimony. What I want to say is that a gap in the partition that is wide enough for a glimmer of light does not have to be wide enough to peek through it into Mary's abode.

In other words, I find Natasha's scenario where someone does right that, witnesses Mary getting killed and mutilated and cries out "oh Murder" highly improbable.

Best wishes,

Boris

[Wickerman]

Hi Boris.
These are quotes from the various sources which covered Praters comments on that point you made.
GLRO is the Original Court document. Followed by Daily Telegraph, St. James Gazette, Echo, Scotsman.

(GLRO) On Thursday I went into the Court about 5 o'clock in the evening and returned about 1 on Friday morning. I stood at the corner by Mr McCarthy's shop till about 20 minutes past 1. I spoke to no one. I was waiting for a man I lived with, he did not come. I went up to my room. On the stairs I could see a glimmer through the partition if there had been a light in the deceased room. I might not have noticed it. I did not take particular notice. I could have heard her moving if she had moved.

(DT) I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room.

(SJG) The witness left her room at five o'clock on Thursday evening, and returned at about one o'clock on Friday morning. She waited about the stairs for twenty minutes. There might have been a light in the deceased's room, but she did not take any notice. She used to hear the deceased walking about in her room.

(E) When did you leave your room on Thursday? - About five o'clock in the evening, and returned to it about one o'clock on Friday morning. I waited about. No one came up to talk to me. I talked to Mr. McCarthy, as his shop was open at half-past one. I did not see any light in the deceased's room when I went upstairs. There might or might not have been a glimmer, but I did not see it.
Could you hear her moving about in her room? - Oh, yes, Sir. If there had been any noise I should have heard it.

(SC) On Thursday I went out of the court about five, and I returned close upon one on Friday morning. I stood at the corner of the court waiting for a young man. I never saw my young man. I went into my room and lay down. I went into M'Carthy's shop.
The Coroner - Was it open at 1 a.m.?
Witness - Yes, sir, and sometimes later. I told him to say to my young man that I had gone to my room. From where I was I could see if a light was in the room of the deceased. I have only spoken to her once or twice.

[bolo]

Hello Natasha,

Maybe from behind the partition, one of the neighbours (I can't remember who) said she could see into the room from a gap. I wonder if it would have been possible to enter the room somehow through the partition.

I think it was Prater who sad that she could see a glimmer through a tiny gap between some of the wooden planks in the staircase when she went up to her room (or down to the pub) but that doesn't mean that someone would have been able to actually see something through that gap.

I don't have my books handy so I may mix something up here again.

Best wishes,

Boris

[Wickerman]

Before anyone says ''but why would the accomplice shout 'oh murder'"

If there was an accomplice, (s)he may have been told that MJK was going to get a beating, robbed, insert whatever other motive, and maybe didn't expect to witness a murder.

Why didn't they come forward? They would've been terrified

There is a report by one witness who says she saw Mary Kelly outside the Britannia talking to a man & woman about 3:00.

"She noticed three persons at the corner of the street, near the Britannia public house. There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache, talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a female poorly clad and without any headgear."

And..

"Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before."

[Natasha]

Before anyone says ''but why would the accomplice shout 'oh murder'"

If there was an accomplice, (s)he may have been told that MJK was going to get a beating, robbed, insert whatever other motive, and maybe didn't expect to witness a murder.

Why didn't they come forward? They would've been terrified

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

Are you suggesting that someone has witnessed THAT murder ?
(From where ?)
He must have watched JtR skinning and cutting his victim, then.
I'm not surprised he or she never came forward.

All the best

Hi DVV

Possibly

Maybe from behind the partition, one of the neighbours (I can't remember who) said she could see into the room from a gap. I wonder if it would have been possible to enter the room somehow through the partition.

I think seeing as Joe Barnett was living with MJK for a while, and the fact that MJK had guests like Maria Harvey over etc, the killer must have known her movements and living situation.

I think the killer knew MJK, because the level of violence inflicted upon her.

If their was an accomplice to the murder, maybe the accomplice was the one who screamed out