'oh Murder'

[jason_c]

Here's a contemporary example from Macdonald's records at the LMA of someone crying out "Murder" when faced with violence. On 17 October 1888 in Tottenham, Henry Elliott shot his brother-in-law Thomas Norris (or Morris) before turning on the gun upon himself and committing suicide. At the time of the inquest, Norris was still alive in the hospital having taken a serious wound to his temple.

From the inquest record at the LMA, John Norris, turf-dealer and nephew to both men:

"On 17th inst. I was at work with my uncle Thomas Norris in Mount Pleasant Field, turf cutting, it was a thick fog. I heard Norris cry out Murder three times. I then heard 2 reports of firearms in succession."

An aside--the Daily News reported on the 18th: "It is believed, too, that deceased had carried the revolver about with him for some time, and that he availed himself of the fog which prevailed yesterday morning to carry out his intention to commit murder and suicide. The shocking affair created a great sensation in the neighbourhood, and all kinds of rumours connecting it with the Whitechapel horrors were circulated."

Best,
Dave

Im sure I have read elsewhere of such cries being used during an attack. I wonder if in times past we were taught to cry out descriptively. Perhaps a simple scream was thought not to be enough of a reply to obtain help. Certainly if it was Kelly shouting "oh murder" it suggests a clear thinking woman.

As to why such a scream/cry did not recieve greater attention? This was before the time of telephones. A simple call to the police would be enough to day. Back then you had to get out of bed, put on some clothes(in the dark) and walk out the door. All of which takes a lot of curiosity and committment on a cold, wet morning at 3am.

[GUT]

G'day Lynn

Hello GUT.

"It was the French connection to the story she is alleged to have told that caught my eye."

But surely that connection was not recent? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Huh??????

[lynn cates]

"Do you pick your nose in Whitechapel?"

Hello GUT.

"It was the French connection to the story she is alleged to have told that caught my eye."

But surely that connection was not recent? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[kensei]

Have always had a feeling that the cry of "Oh, murder!" was made by a passerby who happened to see the Ripper leaving Miller's Court, perhaps with knife still in hand, perhaps with obvious blood on his clothes, or something else that looked ominous. (Stuffing Mary's heart into his pocket? Who knows?) I would not expect the Ripper to be fully on his game and alert to every contingency at that moment, given what he had just done. I would expect his mind to be just spinning, seething with adrenaline, just as he must have been during the manhunt for him immediately after Eddowes' murder as he ducked and doged the police. That night he was supremely lucky. But after MJK, as he left the scene at that late hour of after 4 a.m., maybe he got just careless enough to let someone see him do something blatant and had an "Oh crap!" moment, and whoever the witness was just clammed up and hid after hearing the next day what had happened and just thought "No no no no, I don't want anything to do with it!"

Just theorizing. One possibility. I'm not married to it.

[GUT]

G'day Ginger

My knowledge of French is weak enough that it occurred to me that 'medre' may be some sort of slang, even if it's not in the dictionary. I wanted to leave myself room not to appear a complete fool if it was.

You can't be a complete fool that's my job.

[Ginger]

So I can't type.

My knowledge of French is weak enough that it occurred to me that 'medre' may be some sort of slang, even if it's not in the dictionary. I wanted to leave myself room not to appear a complete fool if it was.

[DVV]

Hi Natasha,

Are you suggesting that someone has witnessed THAT murder ?
(From where ?)
He must have watched JtR skinning and cutting his victim, then.
I'm not surprised he or she never came forward.

All the best

[Natasha]

Not a woman police officer, surely?


"....and just then I heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice."
Mrs Prater.

Hi Wickerman


It is possible for the pitch of a man's vocal cords to change and get higher when frightened

[Wickerman]

I do not believe Mary herself uttered these words, I thought maybe the crime was seen by someone else, possibly a police officer, who witnessed the crime.

Not a woman police officer, surely?


"....and just then I heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice."
Mrs Prater.

It has been suggested that a neighbor may have come to Kelly's door. Unable to get her attention, and seeing a light from the fire in her room, may have put her fingers through the broken window to pull back the curtain.....

It may be her who uttered the exclamation.
But, as no-one came forward to claim such a story (which wouldn't surprise me), we can only be left to wonder.

[Natasha]

No, Natasha, I'm merely saying that "Oh murder !" was a common cry at the time and didn't necessarily mean somebody was being murdered - far from it. Cadosh is the only man to have "heard" a Ripper murder, actually. And he never heard such a cry. Not to say that Kelly's last word wasn't this "Murder !" - it's possible, if not likely, since two witnesses suggested so. Three, if you add Diddles.

All the best

Hi DVV

I just found it a bit too coincidental that there was an exclamation of 'murder' and an actual murder.
It is possible that either the witness s were exaggerating, the term was used in relation to something else, or the press invented it, I accept these as possibilities.

I do not believe Mary herself uttered these words, I thought maybe the crime was seen by someone else, possibly a police officer, who witnessed the crime. I believe someone was watching Millers court, not just the Ripper.

Maybe Mary was used as bait.

I know the obvious question would be, why did no one step forward and report it. Well there maybe the possibility that the suspect was a prominent person and the police would not revel the identity to the public, and there may have been some kind of cover up

[Natasha]

Hi David



Hoo bloody ray...at least there's two of us listening...

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave

I will take what I presume is insinuated sarcasm on the chin

Can get carried away with the JTR subject!

[Natasha]

Natasha,

I don't believe I've welcomed you to the boards yet. Welcome!

Perhaps some would have taken more notice if it was screamed three times but not very loudly?

Seriously though, it would be impossible to prove it had been cried out unless the person that said it came forward (other than MJK) ...no matter how much it may have been believed. As Dave has mentioned, it seems it was used as more slang as opposed to the literal sense.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy

Thank You

I take your point, that does make sense

[GUT]

It was the French connection to to the story she is alleged to have told that caught my eye.

[GUT]

G'day Ginger

'Merde', you surely mean. That's an appealing idea, in view of Kelly's background. I really can't make anything of it, but it's at least interesting that McCarthy was strongly connected with the music-hall scene per Tom Wescott. 'Merde' is the good-luck expression used by French performers before taking the stage, much as we say 'break a leg'. I don't really believe that's what happened, but I can easily imagine Kelly ironically saying 'merde' just before getting down to business.

So I can't type.

[Ginger]

And of course the French "Medre" was common.

'Merde', you surely mean. That's an appealing idea, in view of Kelly's background. I really can't make anything of it, but it's at least interesting that McCarthy was strongly connected with the music-hall scene per Tom Wescott. 'Merde' is the good-luck expression used by French performers before taking the stage, much as we say 'break a leg'. I don't really believe that's what happened, but I can easily imagine Kelly ironically saying 'merde' just before getting down to business.