'oh Murder'

[DVV]

You may fear Fisherman's reaction, who for sure will challenge you to provide Diddles' birth certificate, census records, etc.

But don't worry. He's holydaying in North Korea all summer.

[DVV]

Hi DVV

Diddles was actually quite sensible, he went straight home rather then going to check out any noise. So in that case curiosity didn't kill the cat

My dear Natasha, I'm afraid I have to disagree.

Fleming wouldn't kill a cat with whom he had played coconut shy in Bethnal Green so many times.
Diddles knew that.

Now if you have guts, start a thread called "The feline Bethnal Green cover-up".

And expect many posts from my friends Cates and Carter.

[Natasha]

Remember Diddles was born in Bethnal Green.
I'm not surprised he didn't come forward.

Hi DVV

Diddles was actually quite sensible, he went straight home rather then going to check out any noise. So in that case curiosity didn't kill the cat

[DVV]

Remember Diddles was born in Bethnal Green.
I'm not surprised he didn't come forward.

[Natasha]

I was looking at court precedings, looking at any crimes that may have a connection with the JTR case and came across a case involving a David Thomas Davies. He had feloniously harmed Catherine Davies. What interested me about this case was what the defendant had screamed out and what she was heard screaming, when being attacked: ‘help and murder‘. Could it be possible that MJK had tried to say help, which hadn’t been heard, and then shouted murder? Just thought it was quite interesting.

Also while on the subject of court precedings, I saw another case involving Jane, Mary & Johanna Smith. Johanna Smith was going to get engaged to a William Albert Rayner, but she broke of the engagement in November 1887. Johanna said she didn’t want anything to do with him, despite him going round the house asking to talk to her. He went round the house with a gun and Mary ended up getting shot. William Rayner was found guilty of wounding with intent to do GBH and was sentenced to 10 years penal service servitude. I don’t think Rayner had anything to do with MJKs death.
This case made me wonder if MJKs death was connected to something important to the killer, maybe an anniversary. If it was a crime of passion it would explain the missing heart, if indeed it was missing from the scene

I checked up on the census and found Mary & Johanna couldn’t find Jane after 1881 though. Just thought that was quite interesting

[Sam Flynn]

Do we have a statement from Tiddles?

Not a word, Jon. Cat got her tongue.

[GUT]

I would like to know what woke the kitten, it seems coincidental that the kitten wakes her, and then she hears the cry. Perhaps she didn't hear a first noise, but the kitten did?

Do we have a statement from Tiddles?

Yes Jon Diddles said Meow Purrrrrrrrrrr.

But I tend to agree the cat probably did hear or sense something.

[Wickerman]

.... Prater ought to have been able to "triangulate" the sound, and establish that it came from the rear of the house, rather than from the direction of Dorset Street.

I would like to know what woke the kitten, it seems coincidental that the kitten wakes her, and then she hears the cry. Perhaps she didn't hear a first noise, but the kitten did?

Do we have a statement from Tiddles?

[Sam Flynn]

Strange she would be able to determine the direction of the cry, if as was reported in the Daily Telegraph: "Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room,...".
That places her room facing Dorset St., which is possibly confirmed by The Star: "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers."

It's even better-confirmed by the Telegraph's report of the Inquest: "I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed" - the "shed", of course, being McCarthy's store-room at the front of the house. This is backed up by the same paper's interview with Prater on the 10th November, which you quote above.

Nothing strange about her being able to detect the cry, however. Even if she was in the first floor front room (which I'm certain she was), Prater ought to have been able to "triangulate" the sound, and establish that it came from the rear of the house, rather than from the direction of Dorset Street.

[Wickerman]

Wickerman
I agree that the two windows are very odd. It has always seemed strange to me. However, if the smaller window had formerly been a door, that would place two doors only a few feet apart, which would also be pretty odd. Perhaps I’m not visualizing the location of your suggested partition correctly.

Yes, I doubt two doors existed at the same time.
If there had been a partition between the two windows then the resulting narrow portion would have been a passage with no light, unless the current side door had originally been a side window.
Possibly different modifications by various owners over decades.

... and any cry of “Oh Murder” would have been muffled, and not sound as if, as Prater described, “It seemed to proceed from the court”. (Prater inquest testimony).

Strange she would be able to determine the direction of the cry, if as was reported in the Daily Telegraph: "Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room,...".
That places her room facing Dorset St., which is possibly confirmed by The Star: "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers."
Perhaps it was merely the fact the cry was faint that she assumed it came from behind the house, if louder she may have assumed it came from Dorset St.?
Wouldn't we expect the cry to have been loudest if it came from within the house?

[Edward]

A few random thoughts

Natasha
The forensic evidence (blood saturation of the bed) suggests that Mary was lying on the far side of the bed when her throat was cut. “ … which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner.” (Dr. Phillips inquest testimony) Anybody confronted by an attacker would surely try to get up or scramble away. True, she could have scrambled to that corner of the bed, but would most probably have then been in a more upright position rather than lying down as the blood evidence suggests. I don’t think the victim uttered, “Oh Murder”.

Wickerman
I agree that the two windows are very odd. It has always seemed strange to me. However, if the smaller window had formerly been a door, that would place two doors only a few feet apart, which would also be pretty odd. Perhaps I’m not visualizing the location of your suggested partition correctly.

If anybody saw anything in Mary’s room through the cracks in the partition, that would place the witness behind the partition, and any cry of “Oh Murder” would have been muffled, and not sound as if, as Prater described, “It seemed to proceed from the court”. (Prater inquest testimony).

Best Regards,
Edward

[Wickerman]

Of course all of this is moot if Kelly simply invited her killer into the room.

c.d.

That is what the circumstantial evidence has suggested all along.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,
Maybe you posted this on wrong thread, I was just talking about this on the "was mary kelly a ripper victim" thread.

Hi Spyglass.

It's a continuation from what Natasha, Sam & Ginger had been questioning, the location of the stairs, passage, partition, etc.
I'm suspicious that these tentative points 'may' suggest this house on Dorset St. being similar in plan to what we see of 29 Hanbury St. and the location of the stairs.

[c.d.]

Of course all of this is moot if Kelly simply invited her killer into the room.

c.d.

[spyglass]

Hi Wickerman,
Maybe you posted this on wrong thread, I was just talking about this on the "was mary kelly a ripper victim" thread.