'oh Murder'

[Natasha]

No, Natasha, I'm merely saying that "Oh murder !" was a common cry at the time and didn't necessarily mean somebody was being murdered - far from it. Cadosh is the only man to have "heard" a Ripper murder, actually. And he never heard such a cry. Not to say that Kelly's last word wasn't this "Murder !" - it's possible, if not likely, since two witnesses suggested so. Three, if you add Diddles.

All the best

Hi DVV

I just found it a bit too coincidental that there was an exclamation of 'murder' and an actual murder.
It is possible that either the witness s were exaggerating, the term was used in relation to something else, or the press invented it, I accept these as possibilities.

I do not believe Mary herself uttered these words, I thought maybe the crime was seen by someone else, possibly a police officer, who witnessed the crime. I believe someone was watching Millers court, not just the Ripper.

Maybe Mary was used as bait.

I know the obvious question would be, why did no one step forward and report it. Well there maybe the possibility that the suspect was a prominent person and the police would not revel the identity to the public, and there may have been some kind of cover up

[Wickerman]

I do not believe Mary herself uttered these words, I thought maybe the crime was seen by someone else, possibly a police officer, who witnessed the crime.

Not a woman police officer, surely?


"....and just then I heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice."
Mrs Prater.

It has been suggested that a neighbor may have come to Kelly's door. Unable to get her attention, and seeing a light from the fire in her room, may have put her fingers through the broken window to pull back the curtain.....

It may be her who uttered the exclamation.
But, as no-one came forward to claim such a story (which wouldn't surprise me), we can only be left to wonder.

[Natasha]

Not a woman police officer, surely?


"....and just then I heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice."
Mrs Prater.

Hi Wickerman


It is possible for the pitch of a man's vocal cords to change and get higher when frightened

[DVV]

Hi Natasha,

Are you suggesting that someone has witnessed THAT murder ?
(From where ?)
He must have watched JtR skinning and cutting his victim, then.
I'm not surprised he or she never came forward.

All the best

[Ginger]

So I can't type.

My knowledge of French is weak enough that it occurred to me that 'medre' may be some sort of slang, even if it's not in the dictionary. I wanted to leave myself room not to appear a complete fool if it was.

[GUT]

G'day Ginger

My knowledge of French is weak enough that it occurred to me that 'medre' may be some sort of slang, even if it's not in the dictionary. I wanted to leave myself room not to appear a complete fool if it was.

You can't be a complete fool that's my job.

[kensei]

Have always had a feeling that the cry of "Oh, murder!" was made by a passerby who happened to see the Ripper leaving Miller's Court, perhaps with knife still in hand, perhaps with obvious blood on his clothes, or something else that looked ominous. (Stuffing Mary's heart into his pocket? Who knows?) I would not expect the Ripper to be fully on his game and alert to every contingency at that moment, given what he had just done. I would expect his mind to be just spinning, seething with adrenaline, just as he must have been during the manhunt for him immediately after Eddowes' murder as he ducked and doged the police. That night he was supremely lucky. But after MJK, as he left the scene at that late hour of after 4 a.m., maybe he got just careless enough to let someone see him do something blatant and had an "Oh crap!" moment, and whoever the witness was just clammed up and hid after hearing the next day what had happened and just thought "No no no no, I don't want anything to do with it!"

Just theorizing. One possibility. I'm not married to it.

[lynn cates]

"Do you pick your nose in Whitechapel?"

Hello GUT.

"It was the French connection to the story she is alleged to have told that caught my eye."

But surely that connection was not recent? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Lynn

Hello GUT.

"It was the French connection to the story she is alleged to have told that caught my eye."

But surely that connection was not recent? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Huh??????

[jason_c]

Here's a contemporary example from Macdonald's records at the LMA of someone crying out "Murder" when faced with violence. On 17 October 1888 in Tottenham, Henry Elliott shot his brother-in-law Thomas Norris (or Morris) before turning on the gun upon himself and committing suicide. At the time of the inquest, Norris was still alive in the hospital having taken a serious wound to his temple.

From the inquest record at the LMA, John Norris, turf-dealer and nephew to both men:

"On 17th inst. I was at work with my uncle Thomas Norris in Mount Pleasant Field, turf cutting, it was a thick fog. I heard Norris cry out Murder three times. I then heard 2 reports of firearms in succession."

An aside--the Daily News reported on the 18th: "It is believed, too, that deceased had carried the revolver about with him for some time, and that he availed himself of the fog which prevailed yesterday morning to carry out his intention to commit murder and suicide. The shocking affair created a great sensation in the neighbourhood, and all kinds of rumours connecting it with the Whitechapel horrors were circulated."

Best,
Dave

Im sure I have read elsewhere of such cries being used during an attack. I wonder if in times past we were taught to cry out descriptively. Perhaps a simple scream was thought not to be enough of a reply to obtain help. Certainly if it was Kelly shouting "oh murder" it suggests a clear thinking woman.

As to why such a scream/cry did not recieve greater attention? This was before the time of telephones. A simple call to the police would be enough to day. Back then you had to get out of bed, put on some clothes(in the dark) and walk out the door. All of which takes a lot of curiosity and committment on a cold, wet morning at 3am.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

Are you suggesting that someone has witnessed THAT murder ?
(From where ?)
He must have watched JtR skinning and cutting his victim, then.
I'm not surprised he or she never came forward.

All the best

Hi DVV

Possibly

Maybe from behind the partition, one of the neighbours (I can't remember who) said she could see into the room from a gap. I wonder if it would have been possible to enter the room somehow through the partition.

I think seeing as Joe Barnett was living with MJK for a while, and the fact that MJK had guests like Maria Harvey over etc, the killer must have known her movements and living situation.

I think the killer knew MJK, because the level of violence inflicted upon her.

If their was an accomplice to the murder, maybe the accomplice was the one who screamed out

[Natasha]

Before anyone says ''but why would the accomplice shout 'oh murder'"

If there was an accomplice, (s)he may have been told that MJK was going to get a beating, robbed, insert whatever other motive, and maybe didn't expect to witness a murder.

Why didn't they come forward? They would've been terrified

[Wickerman]

Before anyone says ''but why would the accomplice shout 'oh murder'"

If there was an accomplice, (s)he may have been told that MJK was going to get a beating, robbed, insert whatever other motive, and maybe didn't expect to witness a murder.

Why didn't they come forward? They would've been terrified

There is a report by one witness who says she saw Mary Kelly outside the Britannia talking to a man & woman about 3:00.

"She noticed three persons at the corner of the street, near the Britannia public house. There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache, talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a female poorly clad and without any headgear."

And..

"Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before."

[bolo]

Hello Natasha,

Maybe from behind the partition, one of the neighbours (I can't remember who) said she could see into the room from a gap. I wonder if it would have been possible to enter the room somehow through the partition.

I think it was Prater who sad that she could see a glimmer through a tiny gap between some of the wooden planks in the staircase when she went up to her room (or down to the pub) but that doesn't mean that someone would have been able to actually see something through that gap.

I don't have my books handy so I may mix something up here again.

Best wishes,

Boris

[Wickerman]

Hi Boris.
These are quotes from the various sources which covered Praters comments on that point you made.
GLRO is the Original Court document. Followed by Daily Telegraph, St. James Gazette, Echo, Scotsman.

(GLRO) On Thursday I went into the Court about 5 o'clock in the evening and returned about 1 on Friday morning. I stood at the corner by Mr McCarthy's shop till about 20 minutes past 1. I spoke to no one. I was waiting for a man I lived with, he did not come. I went up to my room. On the stairs I could see a glimmer through the partition if there had been a light in the deceased room. I might not have noticed it. I did not take particular notice. I could have heard her moving if she had moved.

(DT) I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room.

(SJG) The witness left her room at five o'clock on Thursday evening, and returned at about one o'clock on Friday morning. She waited about the stairs for twenty minutes. There might have been a light in the deceased's room, but she did not take any notice. She used to hear the deceased walking about in her room.

(E) When did you leave your room on Thursday? - About five o'clock in the evening, and returned to it about one o'clock on Friday morning. I waited about. No one came up to talk to me. I talked to Mr. McCarthy, as his shop was open at half-past one. I did not see any light in the deceased's room when I went upstairs. There might or might not have been a glimmer, but I did not see it.
Could you hear her moving about in her room? - Oh, yes, Sir. If there had been any noise I should have heard it.

(SC) On Thursday I went out of the court about five, and I returned close upon one on Friday morning. I stood at the corner of the court waiting for a young man. I never saw my young man. I went into my room and lay down. I went into M'Carthy's shop.
The Coroner - Was it open at 1 a.m.?
Witness - Yes, sir, and sometimes later. I told him to say to my young man that I had gone to my room. From where I was I could see if a light was in the room of the deceased. I have only spoken to her once or twice.