Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Abby,

Apologies for my late response.

If the ripper had a problem having sex, mental or physical, and this contributed to, or even triggered his motivation to kill, that would suggest it was an unwelcome but fairly recent development, in which case he could have used prostitutes for sex at any time prior to his first murder, without facing any such humiliation. In fact, a regular prostitute user in the 1880s, with the potential to become a serial killer, might well have put the blame [un]fairly but squarely on these women, if and when his tackle began to let him down.

Love,

Caz
X

And some of these murders may have had nothing to do with sexual urges or drives, despite the fact a prostitue was the victim. I would say that the ones that involved extraction and removal of specific gender parts might have that as a part of the physcological profile of that(those) killer(s)


Being an Unfortunate meant being out in the dark, alone, in the dead of the night, enticing strangers to slip into an alley or backyard to perform sex acts. That fact alone makes them very attractive for opportunity killers. There need be no sexual component at all to some of the Unfortunate/Prostitute murders. Just the desire to kill.

[caz]

Its so interesting that wildly speculating about why Marys murder is so different is just fine for some, not for others.

Kelly sang to Blotchy for over an hour Caz, that's not prostitution of any kind, if anything maybe you should be suggesting she decided to give recitals with every trick that night.

As I said, Michael, that's fine with me. If Kelly was not hoping for a paid quickie, but rather to start a new relationship, might that not explain why she serenaded Blotchy? Her singing tells us nothing about what Blotchy had been expecting from her.

If we can safely assume that Kelly and her killer had two very different outcomes in mind for the night ahead, why can't we speculate that while she may have seen the men she encountered as potential new boyfriends, they may have seen her as a very fleeting source of entertainment.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

If we can safely assume that Kelly and her killer had two very different outcomes in mind for the night ahead, why can't we speculate that while she may have seen the men she encountered as potential new boyfriends, they may have seen her as a very fleeting source of entertainment.

In fact, the above could apply equally well to Stride, if - as Michael fondly imagines - she was all dolled up, hoping to meet a potential new boyfriend by the club. Someone - either this chap or another - didn't appreciate her efforts but saw her only as easy meat for his knife.

Love,

Caz
X

[packers stem]

There is zero proof that Israel was even there, let alone he saw what he claims he did. The people running the Inquest were not impressed with his story, thats a certainty.

Really ??

The people running the inquest weren't impressed ?
They were dragging in anyone and everyone who saw absolutely nothing of any direct relevance so Schwartz should have taken oath , as should Packer.
They were impressed by Mrs Malcolm having a dream ?
It shouldn't be about how impressed Baxter may have been , neither Abberline nor Swanson were disbelieving so what right should Baxter have not to welcome his evidence ?
The fact that neither of the two most important witnesses were called is scandalous ...... and highly suspicious

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

For the life of me, I can't understand why you take the testimony of Fanny as being the word of God himself. She had a sick husband and I believe five children. Not hard to imagine that she might have been called away from the door to look after them for a few moments.

As for Schwartz, we simply DON'T KNOW why he did not testify. Any argument to the contrary is speculation not fact.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"he only saw a women getting attacked moments before her dead body was found feet away."

Sorry, Abby but I think you took a few liberties there. The "attack" according to Schwartz simply consisted of a woman being pushed to the ground nothing more and the "moments" were in fact several minutes.

c.d.

[Unknown]

I doubt height had much to do with it. Men are generally much, much stronger than women. I'm only 5'9 and in the gym often and would have zero concerns about a tall woman. If Jack was pretty strong (which it seems he possessed some strength) a tall woman shouldn't pose any threat. He would presumably be far and away stronger than her still. Consider the average man is 5 times stronger than a woman even without physical conditioning.

[Wickerman]

I'm not aware of any indication that JtR was strong. The Yorkshire Ripper was slightly build, weedy looking. In fact one detective thought he looked effeminate.
Christie (of 10 Rillington Place) was also of small stature and feeble build.

[etenguy]

Hello Michael,

For the life of me, I can't understand why you take the testimony of Fanny as being the word of God himself. She had a sick husband and I believe five children. Not hard to imagine that she might have been called away from the door to look after them for a few moments.

As for Schwartz, we simply DON'T KNOW why he did not testify. Any argument to the contrary is speculation not fact.

c.d.

Hi C.D.

Why do you speculate that the information supplied by Fanny Mortimer is inaccurate. She is quite clear where she was between 12.30am and 1.00am and equally clear that she saw or heard nothing. You are right that she may have been called away, but this is not what she states.

[c.d.]

Hi C.D.

Why do you speculate that the information supplied by Fanny Mortimer is inaccurate. She is quite clear where she was between 12.30am and 1.00am and equally clear that she saw or heard nothing. You are right that she may have been called away, but this is not what she states.

Hello etenguy,

I didn't say that it is inaccurate as in it should be discarded in its entirety. I am only saying that I don't see any reason to take it as being written in stone. I would take it with a grain of salt given her situation with her kids and sick husband and a half an hour is a fairly long time to be in one spot continually. It is possible that she only strayed from the doorway for just a few moments and either forgot that she did so or considered it not worth mentioning.

c.d.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Fanny Mortimer is a crucial witness in as much as the one person she said she saw can be corroborated - Leon Goldstein. So she must have been stood outside her door at a very important time IE Just before, or on 1am [The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.]
So the one part of her story which can be tested holds true, why doubt any other part?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Following on from my last post, Fanny may be slightly out with some of her timings but the essence of her story rings true.

[etenguy]

Hello etenguy,

I didn't say that it is inaccurate as in it should be discarded in its entirety. I am only saying that I don't see any reason to take it as being written in stone. I would take it with a grain of salt given her situation with her kids and sick husband and a half an hour is a fairly long time to be in one spot continually. It is possible that she only strayed from the doorway for just a few moments and either forgot that she did so or considered it not worth mentioning.

c.d.

Fanny Mortimer is a crucial witness in as much as the one person she said she saw can be corroborated - Leon Goldstein. So she must have been stood outside her door at a very important time IE Just before, or on 1am [The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.]
So the one part of her story which can be tested holds true, why doubt any other part?

C.D. makes a good point, Fanny may have left her door for a short while and didn't think that worth mentioning (I haven't found anything that states why she was standing at the front door for 30 minutes - has anyone else?).

She did see Leon Goldstein, that has been corroborated. But saw or heard no-one or nothing else. Does this add strength to the speculation that Stride's killer was in the club that night?

[Darryl Kenyon]

She did see Leon Goldstein, that has been corroborated. But saw or heard no-one or nothing else. Does this add strength to the speculation that Stride's killer was in the club that night?

This is probably for another thread but I have long thought that the killer came behind Liz swiftly and silently before pulling her backwards into the yard, slitting her throat quickly before she hit the ground. So, yes I do believe there is a fair chance Jack was in the club that night, or at the least in the yard while Liz stood at the entrance.

[Wickerman]

C.D. makes a good point, Fanny may have left her door for a short while and didn't think that worth mentioning (I haven't found anything that states why she was standing at the front door for 30 minutes - has anyone else?).

I think you'll find that standing at your door watching the world go by was the equivalent of us watching TV. Some would put a chair in the doorway and sit for hours. No reason was necessary, it was just the thing some women did when all the chores were done.