Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Actually Sam I believe it was heard by Mrs Prater as being "faint", when Sarah thought it was at her front door...which leads to a long held conclusion Ive had that the call was from that courtyard and IF from Mary, she was at her open door when she exclaimed it.

That's quite possible, Mike. Although it fits equally well with a sober and restless Lewis, sitting - what? - less than 10 yards away from Kelly's room, with only a flimsy door and a smashed window in the way... in contrast to a "smashed" Prater being awoken from her drunken slumbers by a cat, who - possibly - had heard some other disturbance echoing up the stairwell just before the scream itself. I don't think Diddles was psychic; something had evidently spooked her.

[Fleetwood Mac]

As others have said in the past, this "oh murder" thing doesn't ring true. It's akin to a reasoned assessment of the situation: "ah yes, I could be murdered here so better shout 'oh murder' so everyone knows".

If someone came at me with a knife I'd be shouting "****!!". A primal response to being backed right into a corner.

[bolo]

Hi Sam,

I don't think Diddles was psychic; something had evidently spooked her.

Diddles was an East End cat who obviously could came and go whenever she wanted and probably was used to the noises there. We have two cats who also can leave and enter the house anytime they please and if there isn't a really big thing going on, they usually ignore any of the usual sounds that echo around them and go on with their mouse-catching biz. A faint cry or some other nondescript sound wouldn't impress them at all.

Oh, and our cats usually return home at 4 or 5 in the morning, have a quick bite and then more often than not jump in our bed, roll themselves up and fall asleep. Sometimes when I have to get up early in the morning I wish I was them.

I won't rule out that Diddles indeed got spooked by something she heard in the court but we probably shouldn't take this for granted.

Best wishes,

Boris

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"How do you know how deeply Mary was sleeping?"

Very well. If the adjective troubles you, sleep then.

"And why wouldn't she open the door to a client if the visit had been prearranged?"

No problem here. But, again--as I observed LONG ago--are we to assume that she is undressing for bed whilst her client is standing there fully clothed? But if NOT fully clothed, did she remark, "My, ducky, what a sharp knife you have"?

I am merely seeking a coherent sequence of events--and which does not strain, overmuch, our credibility.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Maybe you don't know as much about women as I had thought. Is it so hard to imagine a prostitute undressing for her client as a little appetizer for the main course? That would also be a very opportune time to discuss money while the client is still clothed.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I don't know why a lengthy discussion would have to ensue with both Mary and her client on either side of the door. If he was was expected, I would think a simple hey, it's me __ and she opens the door. And again, how realistic is it that her fellow residents were really keeping track of all this?

As for Mary supposedly never taking clients to her room, well there is a first time for everything is there not? And now, Barnett is out of the picture so what would prevent her from doing so?

Even is she was somehow under the impression that McCarthy would let her slide on her rent, she would still have to come up with it at some point. And rent would not be the only thing for which she would need money. There is always food, alcohol, clothes etc. that have to be paid for.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

In addition, there is no precedent for Mary being known to bring any client into her room in the courtyard to sell her sexual favours.

And what precedents do we have for MJK taking a client out behind the Britannia? Where can we read about Kelly dropping her drawers on Flower and Dean? In which annals might we view the salacious details of MJ's visits to the docks taking on all comers?

Mike

[Wickerman]

I won't rule out that Diddles indeed got spooked by something she heard in the court but we probably shouldn't take this for granted.

Perhaps it was this noise, commented on by Julia Vanturney:
"I heard a strange sound with some door, which was not like the way in which the deceased used to shut the door."
Morning Advertiser, 13 Nov.

[lynn cates]

"'Come in,' she said "I'll give you, shelter from the storm."

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Is it so hard to imagine a prostitute undressing for her client as a little appetizer for the main course? That would also be a very opportune time to discuss money while the client is still clothed."

Hmm, you may not know so much about working class johns in the LVP as I had thought. Appetizer? You must be kidding. It was, Any old port in the storm, and it's storming most any old time.

Cheers.
LC

[MrBarnett]

Lynn,

Your taste in music is impeccable.

MrB

[Michael W Richards]

And what precedents do we have for MJK taking a client out behind the Britannia? Where can we read about Kelly dropping her drawers on Flower and Dean? In which annals might we view the salacious details of MJ's visits to the docks taking on all comers?

Mike

We have her live in lover who testified he objected to her "working the street" Mike, granted its not empirical, but its better than nothing..which is what the notion of her doing business in her room at any time has.

Mary is obviously far from her Brothel days, and I suspect the idea of walking the streets didn't have the same appeal...so she didn't do it as often.

Cheers

[pinkmoon]

Kelly's murder might tell us more about our killer than any other of them she must have been very confident that he was just a harmless punter he must have looked and acted perfectly normal and he might well have been able to show her a larger than normal amount of money.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Is it so hard to imagine a prostitute undressing for her client as a little appetizer for the main course? That would also be a very opportune time to discuss money while the client is still clothed."

Hmm, you may not know so much about working class johns in the LVP as I had thought. Appetizer? You must be kidding. It was, Any old port in the storm, and it's storming most any old time.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Are you saying that Mary would not have undressed for a client in the privacy of her own apartment? I can see the old wham bam on the streets while the woman is clothed but would that be the norm in her apartment especially if she thought he might have more money than her usual customers?

I would also expect that undressing and being able to do the deed in the ladies' apartment would cost more than business conducted on the street. You get what you pay for in other words.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Kelly's murder might tell us more about our killer than any other of them she must have been very confident that he was just a harmless punter he must have looked and acted perfectly normal and he might well have been able to show her a larger than normal amount of money.

The evidence in Kellys murder suggests someone who was known to him, making this the only murder in the Canonical Group with evidence of that kind. You're correct when you say that this murder may tell us a lot about her murderer, but I don't see the evidence to conclude he was "THE" murderer you meant to reference pinkmoon, partly based on the very significant deviation from selecting strangers who were plying their trade outdoors alone.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I agree that it was someone known to Mary but the problem is that could encompass someone she met earlier that day which really doesn't lead us anywhere.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

We have her live in lover who testified he objected to her "working the street" Mike, granted its not empirical, but its better than nothing..which is what the notion of her doing business in her room at any time has.

Barnett described her as having been in Pennington, a 'bad house', and we know she lived with Mrs. Buki, and that she brought a woman of ill-repute to stay with her at the Court. There is nowhere that we even see her taking clients outside. So, you repeat this same mantra over and over until it's gospel for you. I have no idea why a prostitute wouldn't bring someone back to her room. There is no good reason. I'm sure you have manufactured one and have repeated it often enough that you believe it. We don't know and we can't know. The educated guess is that if she were a prostitute, she had sex where she could get away without being nabbed by the police. That's as far as we can go despite your intent to create something else.

Mike