Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

Have you heard of any other job she was doing before her death ?

Cheers

As far as I can tell David she relied on money from Barnett after he left, and before he left they were some 3 weeks in arrears, and he objected to her working the streets. So I don't see any income, or the freedom, that would reflect her doing street work while Barnett was there.

Mary was the one among the Five that almost exclusively, it appears, relied on men or street work for her money....the others had other means of income. One then wonders why she went to bed around 1:30am when most of the working women would still be out plying their trade...like Mary Ann Cox, and maybe Elizabeth Prater.

Cheers DVV

[MrBarnett]

Hi Michael,

If we knew as much about MJK as we know about any of the other canonicals, would we have ample evidence to determine the motivation for her murder?

My own, no doubt simplistic, view is that what we think we know about Kelly, her youth, attractiveness, romantic Irish/Welsh background etc etc is why we think there might, uniquely, be a 'motive' for her murder.

MrB

[Sam Flynn]

One then wonders why she went to bed around 1:30am when most of the working women would still be out plying their trade...

Perhaps because she'd got drunk earlier, whilst arguably plying her trade with Mr Blotchy. Whatever all that was about, it at least demonstrates that Kelly was not above taking somewhat unprepossessing middle-aged men into her room of a night.

[Michael W Richards]

Perhaps because she'd got drunk earlier, whilst arguably plying her trade with Mr Blotchy. Whatever all that was about, it at least demonstrates that Kelly was not above taking somewhat unprepossessing middle-aged men into her room of a night.

She was heard singing almost continuously in her room until after 1am, her lights were out at 1:30...according to courtyard witnesses, the best people to use in this case for their proximity and knowledge of Mary. There is no evidence from those people that she ever left her room once she went in at 11:45pm, and there is no evidence that singing and servicing a client can or would be done simultaeneously.

Mary was in for the night, hammered, as of 11:45pm.

Therefore, her killer would have to enter Millers Court to accidentally, or purposefully, find her specifically. Entering that court to peek in windows to find sleeping women doesn't match finding women on the street, openly suggesting that they go somewhere dark together to do business.

Polly and Annie invited their killer into the dark. Mary didn't, and Liz Stride didn't.

Cheers Sam

[DVV]

Mike, don't forget Fleming, re money.

[Sam Flynn]

There is no evidence from those people that she ever left her room once she went in at 11:45pm

But those people were themselves sporadically in and out of Miller's Court that night. Had they been keeping watch on Number 13 all the time, I'd be more inclined to conclude that Kelly never went out again. As it is, Mary could easily have slipped out more than once between the times Cox and Prater were back at base. Always assuming, of course, that Blotchy wasn't Mary's killer.

[Wickerman]

Mary was in for the night, hammered, as of 11:45pm.

Mary Cox:
"..I did not notice she was drunk until she said good night."

If that's your view of being hammered Mike, you need a good night out with the boys!

[c.d.]

"Polly and Annie invited their killer into the dark. Mary didn't, and Liz Stride didn't."

Hello Michael,

....and we know this how?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Mary Cox:
"..I did not notice she was drunk until she said good night."

If that's your view of being hammered Mike, you need a good night out with the boys!

You may be right Jon, .... but there are quotes from Mary Ann that suggest Mary could barely get those words out, hence my position.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

"Polly and Annie invited their killer into the dark. Mary didn't, and Liz Stride didn't."

Hello Michael,

....and we know this how?

c.d.

Well cd, we know that Polly and Annie are the only 2 Canonicals that were confirmed by witnesses to have stated that they were indeed soliciting on the nights of their deaths....we know that the only witness sighting of Liz Stride between 12:35 and just after 1am when Louis says he arrives,...albeit a statement of dubious value, has her rejecting the physical attempts to take Liz from her place out on the street. No-one sees Liz Stride taking any men into dark alleys at all that night. And as I have stated many times, we have court witnesses that do not see Mary Kelly leave her room again after entering it before midnight. Despite the fact that 1 witness comes and goes past her room a few times during those critical hours, and including the fact that her room is quiet and dark by 1:30, according to 2 witnesses. If she was in bed asleep as it would seem, then her killer came to her while she slept.

Cheers cd

[GUT]

G'day Michael

But what if her room is quiet and dark at 1:30 because she is out getting another client?

Or what if Maxwell and Lewis are right and she was still alive the next morning when she is reported to be with another man who resembles a porter?

[Wickerman]

... And as I have stated many times, we have court witnesses that do not see Mary Kelly leave her room again after entering it before midnight.

Since when was not seeing something evidence of anything?

Not seeing Kelly leave, means the neighbors didn't see her leave, not that Kelly did not leave.

It would be different if Kelly had a room-mate who swears she never left, then you would have something Mike.
You don't believe these neighbors were on a stake-out do you, watching for the slightest movement from #13?

Kelly was either asleep after 1:00 am, or out, and as we have two witnesses who saw her out, and nothing to contest those witnesses, then we have a good idea where she was.
Personal preferences do not enter into it.

[Michael W Richards]

Since when was not seeing something evidence of anything?

Not seeing Kelly leave, means the neighbors didn't see her leave, not that Kelly did not leave.

It would be different if Kelly had a room-mate who swears she never left, then you would have something Mike.
You don't believe these neighbors were on a stake-out do you, watching for the slightest movement from #13?

Kelly was either asleep after 1:00 am, or out, and as we have two witnesses who saw her out, and nothing to contest those witnesses, then we have a good idea where she was.
Personal preferences do not enter into it.

Perspective is required Jon....the witnesses I referred to would have had ample opportunity to have seen Mary IF she left before her room went quiet and dark, and a witness that walked past Marys room to come and go a few times after that did not see or hear anything from that room after 1:30. No-one in the tuck shop inside the archway saw her walk past....the 2 witnesses you mention do not have the qualifications for being able to positively identify Mary that both courtyard witnesses do.

Elizabeth Prater was in her room at 1:30am, and she is on record for stating that she could hear when Mary moved about in the room the floor below. She did not hear anything before falling asleep, so lets say until she dozes off by 2. Cox doesn't see Mary again, and she is last in for the night around 3, isn't it? So...how is it then that Mary suddenly appears on the street by 2 am, according to some sources. How is it that she escorts someone into the courtyard and Cox misses hearing or seeing anything when she last passes that room...after Marys supposedly re-entry?

The simple truth seems to be that Mary entered at 11:45, drunk, she sang with Blotchy Face in her room until sometime after 1, and that by 1:30, her room was quiet and dark....and she couldn't have left the room before then, Prater was on her way in.

I assume, because there is no record of Blotchy leaving that room either, that after her songs they did conduct some quieter melodies...but I am uncertain whether money was the catalyst. A general observation and not intended to accuse or defame anyone...havent you ever noticed that very attractive sexual women often have larger armed male friends that are psuedo protectors, and that some of those women might be quite affectionate with those kinds of friends in order to maintain that security? I think that in Marys case she might be rewarding such a bloke for the drinks he bought and the escort home.

Mary was a prostitute...she really didn't do much else, so ........it seems to make sense to me that she would know some folks like a Blotchy to make sure she stays safe out there.

The only thing we know is that before the room was forced opened Blotchy left. We don't know when he left.....we just know he did. In Marys case, the evidence isn't so definitive.

Cheers Jon

[GUT]

G'day Michael

But isn't the weakness in your assertion that Mary must have been in her room at 1:30 because no one saw her leave the simple fact that no one saw Blotchy leave either, at any time.

So clearly a person could easily leave without observation.

[Wickerman]

Hi Mike.

Mary was a prostitute...she really didn't do much else, so ........it seems to make sense to me that she would know some folks like a Blotchy to make sure she stays safe out there.

Well that didn't work out so well did it.

The only thing we know is that before the room was forced opened Blotchy left. We don't know when he left.....we just know he did. In Marys case, the evidence isn't so definitive.

Mike, I think you sunk your own ship with that last observation.
As GUT correctly pointed out, as no-one saw Blotchy leave, then no-one saw Kelly leave either.