Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Michael W Richards]

In the Chicago Tribune on October 7th the following was published;

"I learned today from a Scotland Yard man working on the case that the mysterious American who was here a few months ago offering money for specimens of the parts taken from the bodies of the victims has been discovered. He is a reputable physician in Philadelphia with a large practice, who was over here preparing a medical work on specific diseases. He went to King's College and Middlesex Hospitals and asked for specimens, and merely said he was willing to pay well if he could not get them otherwise. The statement that he offered £20 each or named any other large sum seems to be a delusion of the Coroner. These facts were given the police by an eminent London physician, who saw a great deal of the Philadelphian when he was here, but would only divulge the information on a written guarantee from Sir Charles Warren that neither his name nor the name of the physician in question should be given to the public. He said the doctor had gone back to America, and his mission here was purely legitimate.

An American who used to live in New York keeps a herb shop now in the Whitechapel district. A detective called at his place this week and asked him if he had sold any unusual compound of herbs to a customer since August. Similar inquiries were made at other shops in the neighborhood."

To me this sounds like a legitimate event. I also found it interesting that the police were looking at herb shops, perhaps to see if there were some that could subdue someone without leaving visible or scent traces.

I think the recent posts concerning the possibility of a black market willing to pay big for organs is unlikely, as has been mentioned there were lots of people dying each year without any traceable relatives. And burial space in London was scarce even then. Between Paris and London alone we have armies of the dead, centuries worth. Getting access to those organs had legal means.

I think this argument is one of the most reasonable when considering if the organs were actually removed at the mortuary Trevor, there was no great monetary value to any organs they might take, and, immense risks. That would return us to someone taking them as trophies, in which case I would think the murderer himself would be the most likely man to claim them.

The organs were reported to have been taken from the victims onsite, and I think that can give us some valuable information about the skill-sets of the killer, or just the knife skills perhaps. It would suggests someone very familiar with sharp knives, most likely, in their workplace. I wish they could have differentiated blood samples, even if he had such skills he may have slit himself accidentally. I wonder, do any "legitimate suspects" have injuries when they are detained?

[Batman]

One member several years ago posted a price list from some medical source for a variety of organs. I remember talking with Ivor Edwards about it, if anyone remembers who that was.
It seemed clear that you had to be a member of the medical society to obtain those organs, yet some on Casebook were talking about how available organs were. They may have been available, but not to the general public.

Sure, not the general public, but how would a thief even begin to sell organs on the black market if they were robbing them from the morgue?

[Elamarna]

Steve
I fully agree that we can only work with the times we are left with and fully accept that we do not know if all the time pieces referred to were in sync.

However we have nothing to prove any of them were not and so we are left with them to use with any calculation we choose to make. They were stated in inquest testimony, and in my current calculations I have allowed for time discrepancies and still arrive at times which in my opinion as good as dam suggest that the killer could have not had time to do all that he is purported to have done.

But it’s nice to see you see some merit in the results

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

My current view, and it applies to all times in all murders in 1888, is that they should be treated as guides at best. To use the times, as many do, and that is not aimed at you, as set in stone, as absolute times, is in my opinion utterly unrealistic.



Steve

[Sam Flynn]

And as stated the female reproductive organ was one organ which would have been in short supply and in great demand

I'm not sure it would, though.

[DJA]

One member several years ago posted a price list from some medical source for a variety of organs. I remember talking with Ivor Edwards about it, if anyone remembers who that was.

Ivor wrote a book claiming one of Jack the Ripper's inpatients,"Donston",was JtR.

Nichols and Eddowes/Conway were also his inpatients together in 1867.
Notice how Eddowes was tending her sister in Thrawl Street near where Nichols was residing for a short time.
Nichols moved next door to Eddowes just before the hopping season.
Eddowes returned for a reward .....

Same guy was Vestry Medical Officer at young Mary Ann Kelly's church.

Expertise extended to TB and hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia.

[DJA]

Unclaimed corpses were free.

Also relatives could donate corpses in exchange for burial afterwards.

London Hospital had one of the biggest collections of organs in the world.

[Wickerman]

One member several years ago posted a price list from some medical source for a variety of organs. I remember talking with Ivor Edwards about it, if anyone remembers who that was.
It seemed clear that you had to be a member of the medical society to obtain those organs, yet some on Casebook were talking about how available organs were. They may have been available, but not to the general public.

[MrBarnett]

Were the organs donated free of charge? If not, they had some monetary value.

[Wickerman]

By 1888 students of medicine had access to tissue and organs.

What that act effectively meant was that a lot of poor people and people who were without families, such as homeless, were used a lot more for medical scientific research, legally. Over the years various groups petitioned against it for reasons such as these, however, in the end, it seems enough people donate their bodies to science, but between legally being able to use a homeless person's dead body and those who gave their bodies to research, 1888 medical students did not have a shortage of organs and tissue to work on.

But isn't it true that you had to be a member of the medical fraternity to obtain the organs?
How would a surgeon who had been struck off, or an aspiring student who failed the grade, how would they get hold of any organs?

[Trevor Marriott]

Is there any evidence of the scale of this shortage, Trevor?

Sam

No there is not, however it should be noted that The Anatomy Act was passed following Burke and Hares exploits where not only organs but bodies were taken and used for medical research because they were in short supply for teaching purposes.

That demand still existed thereafter and that is why the Anatomy Act was passed, which allowed not only organs to be freely and lawfully obtained but in some case whole bodies.

And as stated the female reproductive organ was one organ which would have been in short supply and in great demand, simply because only females have that specific organ and it would have been an organ which would have been very useful for teaching purposes,

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

There was always a shortage of organs for research especially specific female organs.

Is there any evidence of the scale of this shortage, Trevor?

[Trevor Marriott]

By 1888 students of medicine had access to tissue and organs.

What that act effectively meant was that a lot of poor people and people who were without families, such as homeless, were used a lot more for medical scientific research, legally. Over the years various groups petitioned against it for reasons such as these, however, in the end, it seems enough people donate their bodies to science, but between legally being able to use a homeless person's dead body and those who gave their bodies to research, 1888 medical students did not have a shortage of organs and tissue to work on.

There was always a shortage of organs for research especially specific female organs.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

And Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown.Eddowes:
[Coroner] Would the parts removed be of any use for professional purposes? - None whatever.

So what was the point in taking organs,can't make money,can't use it for research.There were intact bodies available.Give it up Trevor.

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If the organs were taken as I suggest they would not be sold on but simply used for research by whatever medical establishment the person who took them
was from

Maybe it is you that should give it up

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Sorry Trevor, you do not prove that at all. True you make an argument for it, but that is far different from proving the time the killer had.
The argument is not without some merit, however it really all depends on how we interpret the evidence and how much credence we give to the times quoted as being anything like synchronized.


Steve

Steve
I fully agree that we can only work with the times we are left with and fully accept that we do not know if all the time pieces referred to were in sync.

However we have nothing to prove any of them were not and so we are left with them to use with any calculation we choose to make. They were stated in inquest testimony, and in my current calculations I have allowed for time discrepancies and still arrive at times which in my opinion as good as dam suggest that the killer could have not had time to do all that he is purported to have done.

But it’s nice to see you see some merit in the results

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Varqm]

And Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown.Eddowes:
[Coroner] Would the parts removed be of any use for professional purposes? - None whatever.

So what was the point in taking organs,can't make money,can't use it for research.There were intact bodies available.Give it up Trevor.

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