Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[MrBarnett]

I think people are ignoring what to my mind is the most likely scenario which is Kelly meeting her client in a pub a few days prior to her killing. He buys her drinks and she tells him to come by her place some night soon. This solves the problem of her going out late on a cold, rainy night to solicit and why she would open her door and invite her killer in.

c.d.

Why would that be the 'most likely' scenario?

Is that how you imagine MJK operated in the Highway? She went to the Prussian Flag, say, and handed out business cards? 'Come up and see me some time' sort of thing?

[Fisherman]

In order of credibility (just my opinion):

MJK solicited on Commercial Street etc and took her clients back to her room, charging the appropriate price.

MJK solicited on Commercial Street etc and took her clients into the nearest dark corner for a 4d quickie.

13, Miller's Court was a known brothel and clients made appointments to visit.

I´d rate your second option as my third, otherwise we are in total agreement.

[MrBarnett]

I´d rate your second option as my third, otherwise we are in total agreement.

So would I, if Joe Barnett had been gone a year, rather than a few weeks.

[Batman]

I think people are ignoring what to my mind is the most likely scenario which is Kelly meeting her client in a pub a few days prior to her killing. He buys her drinks and she tells him to come by her place some night soon. This solves the problem of her going out late on a cold, rainy night to solicit and why she would open her door and invite her killer in.

c.d.

The impression I get from reading about the case is that there isn't much focus on their clientele at all except looking out for couples alone. It starts with butchers, leather apron, Pizer the Jew, Jews, then goes to a medical man because of Chapman. Brown seems to indicate medical knowledge then suggests a slaughterer and finally Bond, after saying slaughterer, is only one who manages to actually get a good idea of a profile going by saying JtR is probably nice to you and looks like a normal person... i.e, your client, by which time it's too late for the C5.

At the height of the ripper murders, they are going away with him because they need their doss money but probably feel a sense of safety with him. Eddowes goes into a dark corner with him in Mitre Square. Kelly brings him to her home and gets drunk with him. She eats fish and potatoes too.

It's like they have been around him before.

This would explain why the ripper was making his own luck.

He probably knew by staying still in Mitre Square corner that the beat PC wouldn't see him and he learned that maybe from one of the unfortunates.

What sort of a murderer was likely standing in the corner in the dark with a dead woman at his feet by his own bloody hand and ahead of him a copper with a lantern standing so close to him that all the PC needs to do is walk forward a few meters and he has him?

Someone who has done it before.

[MrBarnett]

The impression I get from reading about the case is that there isn't much focus on their clientele at all except looking out for couples alone. It starts with butchers, leather apron, Pizer the Jew, Jews, then goes to a medical man because of Chapman. Brown seems to indicate medical knowledge then suggests a slaughterer and finally Bond, after saying slaughterer, is only one who manages to actually get a good idea of a profile going by saying JtR is probably nice to you and looks like a normal person... i.e, your client, by which time it's too late for the C5.

At the height of the ripper murders, they are going away with him because they need their doss money but probably feel a sense of safety with him. Eddowes goes into a dark corner with him in Mitre Square. Kelly brings him to her home and gets drunk with him. She eats fish and potatoes too.

It's like they have been around him before.

This would explain why the ripper was making his own luck.

He probably knew by staying still in Mitre Square corner that the beat PC wouldn't see him and he learned that maybe from one of the unfortunates.

What sort of a murderer was likely standing in the corner in the dark with a dead woman at his feet by his own bloody hand and ahead of him a copper with a lantern standing so close to him that all the PC needs to do is walk forward a few meters and he has him?

Someone who has done it before.

Slaughterers, horse-slaughters in particular, came first.

JTR, whoever he was, had nerve. That's all that was required. No amount of experience of the locations would have overcome a lack of nerve.

He looked both ways, listened, did what he was compelled to do, and left.

[Batman]

Slaughterers, horse-slaughters in particular, came first.

JTR, whoever he was, had nerve. That's all that was required. No amount of experience of the locations would have overcome a lack of nerve.

He looked both ways, listened, did what he was compelled to do, and left.

His nerve was highly likely to be a lot of alcohol. JtR would be a classic lust murderer with full blown drink addiction. Most of them are. They often get liquered up before murdering.

[c.d.]

Why would that be the 'most likely' scenario?

Is that how you imagine MJK operated in the Highway? She went to the Prussian Flag, say, and handed out business cards? 'Come up and see me some time' sort of thing?

Hello Mr. Barnett,

Notice that I said "in my opinion." A customer is a customer regardless of how they met. Do you think Mary spent her time on the streets 24/7? If Mary had a drinking problem it is a reasonable assumption that she spent some time in pubs. Apparently she was a somewhat attractive woman. Is it so hard to imagine that she might therefore have spoken to men and that those men might buy her drinks? If they showed an interest in her why not let them know that her services were available especially if she felt they might have some money. A casual appointment to come to her place follows. Why is that so far fetched?

c.d.

[MrBarnett]

His nerve was highly likely to be a lot of alcohol. JtR would be a classic lust murderer with full blown drink addiction. Most of them are. They often get liquered up before murdering.

So why would he need to recce his locations? If he was an alcoholic, would he have even remembered them?

How familiar are you with alcoholism?

Do you think before you post?

[MrBarnett]

Hello Mr. Barnett,

Notice that I said "in my opinion." A customer is a customer regardless of how they met. Do you think Mary spent her time on the streets 24/7? If Mary had a drinking problem it is a reasonable assumption that she spent some time in pubs. Apparently she was a somewhat attractive woman. Is it so hard to imagine that she might therefore have spoken to men and that those men might buy her drinks? If they showed an interest in her why not let them know that her services were available especially if she felt they might have some money. A casual appointment to come to her place follows. Why is that so far fetched?

c.d.

Hi CD,

I didn't say it was far fetched. I questioned why you might think it the 'most likely' scenario. Of course, it's possible, but was that how East End prostitutes generally earned their daily crust?

Gary

[c.d.]

Hi CD,

I didn't say it was far fetched. I questioned why you might think it the 'most likely' scenario.

Gary

Because it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that she would go out to solicit late at night when it was cold and rainy.

Someone trying to enter through the broken window risked waking her up and having her scream.

I think she let someone in. I don't think (given her supposed fear of the Ripper) that she would have let a stranger in.

I believe that her killer had killed before and that Barnett or any other ex lover was not capable of doing what was done to her.

If she was in need of rent money and the person at the door identified himself as the man from the pub who bought her drinks I think she would have let him in especially if she thought he had any sort of money since she could no longer depend on Barnett.

I think the man she let into her room was Jack.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Because it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that she would go out to solicit late at night when it was cold and rainy.

The conditions didn't seem to deter Cox or Prater from heading out that night.

[c.d.]

True Sam but she had been drinking and probably would much rather have gone to sleep.

c.d.

[Batman]

So why would he need to recce his locations? If he was an alcoholic, would he have even remembered them?

How familiar are you with alcoholism?

Do you think before you post?

Blotchy had a beer can.

Schwartz witnessed a drunk attacking stride.

Plenty of examples of lust murderers who are drunks.

Plenty of them did recon too.

Nothing surprising there one bit.

[MrBarnett]

Because it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that she would go out to solicit late at night when it was cold and rainy.

Someone trying to enter through the broken window risked waking her up and having her scream.

I think she let someone in. I don't think (given her supposed fear of the Ripper) that she would have let a stranger in.

I believe that her killer had killed before and that Barnett or any other ex lover was not capable of doing what was done to her.

If she was in need of rent money and the person at the door identified himself as the man from the pub who bought her drinks I think she would have let him in especially if she thought he had any sort of money since she could no longer depend on Barnett.

I think the man she let into her room was Jack.

c.d.

Do you imagine the Ratcliffe Highway sex trade only operated in fine weather? If there was a chill in the air or a spot of rain all the unfortunates headed for home?

Did Mary decide not to go out to the pub that night because the weather was inclement? And if not, once she'd got a few rums inside her, would she have immediately headed home to her cosy hovel?

[MrBarnett]

Blotchy had a beer can.

Schwartz witnessed a drunk attacking stride.

Plenty of examples of lust murderers who are drunks.

Plenty of them did recon too.

Nothing surprising there one bit.

So you don't know the difference between an alcoholic and someone who shares a quart of beer.

You're 'plenty of' doesn't strike me as very scientific.